Jul 20, 2022·2 replies
Y0rnI wouldn't say the entirity, but the big players yes.
It is not in the name of Western Europe that Eastern European countries want to join NATO. That was the point. I don't see where your comment is a response on, I'm not even saying Western Europe is threatened by Russia, or should be afraid of Russia.
Russia should think of the reasons why neighbouring countries want to join NATO
Sure, I agree that Russia should think about that, one of the reasons the invasion is dumb as f*** is because it legitimizes their fear of Russia even more so now.
But the west should also reflect on why Russia doesn't want to be surrounded by NATO, nobody even acknowledges that and you know this.
- Jul 20, 2022·2 replies
Eastern European countries fears for Russia is infinitely more justifiable than those of Western European countries. No historical precedent for that at all.
- Jul 20, 2022·1 replyScratchin Mamba
Sure, I agree that Russia should think about that, one of the reasons the invasion is dumb as f*** is because it legitimizes their fear of Russia even more so now.
But the west should also reflect on why Russia doesn't want to be surrounded by NATO, nobody even acknowledges that and you know this.
The Western leaders don't, but I've seen many Western experts say NATO shouldn't expand to the Russian border tho. That the Russians see it as their sphere of influence and feel threatened, and we should stay out of that. I'm not agreeing with superpowers controlling neighbouring countries, but it is a reality we have to live in. It is a fact superpowers have these spheres of influence and a military alliance on its borders can be very threatening. The USA would do the same
By the way, you just mentioned that the Western European countries raise their military budget as a consequence of Russia invading Ukraine, cause they feel threatened. While I agree that is totally misplaced, especially compared to Eastern Europe that has a historical precedent, I don't necessarily disagree with raising the budget in general. Besides France and the UK, the defense of Europe is in a very bad state and completely dependent on the USA
Jul 20, 2022·1 replyScratchin MambaBecause of history. Now answer me why does Russia fear a western military alliance at their borders?
The only time Russia invaded a western country was to save them from themselves in WW2.
The west has invaded Russia three times in the 20th century. Once during WW1, then right after to overthrow the Bolshevik Revolution and then again during WW2. In all of these instances, Eastern European countries were used as allies to invade Russia.
For some reason, an imagined Russian threat to western Europe with no historical precedent at all is enough justification for our governments to ramp up military spending and to commit economic suicide, because supposedly we'd be next if we don't stop them in Ukraine. But if Russia fears a western military alliance closing in on their borders is of course totally irrational despite the fact that the west actually did invade Russia three times.
letting the warsaw uprising be crushed to save the poles from themselves
- Jul 20, 2022Y0rn
The Western leaders don't, but I've seen many Western experts say NATO shouldn't expand to the Russian border tho. That the Russians see it as their sphere of influence and feel threatened, and we should stay out of that. I'm not agreeing with superpowers controlling neighbouring countries, but it is a reality we have to live in. It is a fact superpowers have these spheres of influence and a military alliance on its borders can be very threatening. The USA would do the same
By the way, you just mentioned that the Western European countries raise their military budget as a consequence of Russia invading Ukraine, cause they feel threatened. While I agree that is totally misplaced, especially compared to Eastern Europe that has a historical precedent, I don't necessarily disagree with raising the budget in general. Besides France and the UK, the defense of Europe is in a very bad state and completely dependent on the USA
yeah lol theres no situation that satisfies this view
either rely on america for defense and dont spend anything, instead becoming more subservient to america, or raise your own defense spending and move autonomously, which they also dont like
- Jul 20, 2022Scratchin Mamba
Sure, I agree that Russia should think about that, one of the reasons the invasion is dumb as f*** is because it legitimizes their fear of Russia even more so now.
But the west should also reflect on why Russia doesn't want to be surrounded by NATO, nobody even acknowledges that and you know this.
nato wouldnt invade russia if nato surrounded russia entirely.
what is there to be gained?
- Jul 20, 2022Y0rn
I wouldn't say the entirity, but the big players yes.
It is not in the name of Western Europe that Eastern European countries want to join NATO. That was the point. I don't see where your comment is a response on, I'm not even saying Western Europe is threatened by Russia, or should be afraid of Russia.
Russia should think of the reasons why neighbouring countries want to join NATO
they just dont get that this isnt just about nato, russia wants power over those countries. end of story
they have no rebuttal to this so constantly bring it back to nato when whether nato existed or not, russia would want hegemony in eastern europe
- Jul 20, 2022·1 replyTragedyBerlusconi
letting the warsaw uprising be crushed to save the poles from themselves
I was talking about western europe learn how to read dumbass
And the USSR was doing enough fighting the Nazis already, not being able to give as much support as countries that weren't doing shyt for the past 3 years isn't "letting them be crushed"
- Jul 20, 2022·2 repliesScratchin Mamba
I was talking about western europe learn how to read dumbass
And the USSR was doing enough fighting the Nazis already, not being able to give as much support as countries that weren't doing shyt for the past 3 years isn't "letting them be crushed"
man stood outside warsaw as the resistance were getting packed and decided to watch for the sake of it
- Jul 20, 2022TragedyBerlusconi
man stood outside warsaw as the resistance were getting packed and decided to watch for the sake of it
You been getting progressively annoying and can only argue in bad faith now
Get some help
- Jul 20, 2022·1 reply
Me: there is no historical precedent for western europe fearing Russia
Tragedy: BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRY
- Jul 20, 2022·1 replyScratchin Mamba
Me: there is no historical precedent for western europe fearing Russia
Tragedy: BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRY
do you need a histroical precedent to be cautious?
also what if western european countries just want to support eastern ones retain independence
Jul 20, 2022TragedyBerlusconiman stood outside warsaw as the resistance were getting packed and decided to watch for the sake of it
"don't trust that resistance"
- Jul 20, 2022·1 replyScratchin Mamba
Eastern European countries fears for Russia is infinitely more justifiable than those of Western European countries. No historical precedent for that at all.
- Jul 20, 2022·1 replyElric
Give me one example
- Jul 20, 2022·1 replyTragedyBerlusconi
do you need a histroical precedent to be cautious?
also what if western european countries just want to support eastern ones retain independence
Not gonna engage with you u turned into an even more annoying lib who can't argue in good faith ur braindead
- Jul 20, 2022·1 replyScratchin Mamba
Not gonna engage with you u turned into an even more annoying lib who can't argue in good faith ur braindead
It's a good question tho
Maybe Western Euro countries just don't want Russia causing carnage and taking over land they have no right to, what are they meant to just let russia do it.
- Jul 20, 2022
Polling on Donbass:
-in Ukraine controlled areas of Donbass before war, most wanted to remain in Ukraine
-in Russian controlled areas, plurality wanted to join russia
-gave different answers depending on who was calling them, implying they wouldnt pick up phone from certain callers or would answer what they believed interviewer wanted to hear
-much greater chance this led to higher support for joining donbass, intimidation by DPR and LNR authorities
washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/15/russia-ukraine-donbas-donetsk-luhansk-public-opinion
- Jul 20, 2022·1 replyTragedyBerlusconi
It's a good question tho
Maybe Western Euro countries just don't want Russia causing carnage and taking over land they have no right to, what are they meant to just let russia do it.
They don't want Russia doing it, they don't care when they do it or when their allies do it. Idk how you can say this is about principles when they support the exact same s***
- Jul 20, 2022·1 replyScratchin Mamba
They don't want Russia doing it, they don't care when they do it or when their allies do it. Idk how you can say this is about principles when they support the exact same s***
If Poland invaded ukraine to take Lviv region you bet the EU would be up in arms about it and you know it.
Ask yourself why they don't want russia doing it. Because russia wants power in the region at the expense of their allies
- Jul 20, 2022·1 replyTragedyBerlusconi
If Poland invaded ukraine to take Lviv region you bet the EU would be up in arms about it and you know it.
Ask yourself why they don't want russia doing it. Because russia wants power in the region at the expense of their allies
When Russia does it it's bc they want power and when we do it it's to fight for freedom, democracy, fight terrorism and other good things
- Jul 20, 2022·1 replyScratchin Mamba
When Russia does it it's bc they want power and when we do it it's to fight for freedom, democracy, fight terrorism and other good things
That's bad too, undeniably
But we are talking the present moment. Two wrongs don't make a right
- Jul 20, 2022·2 repliesTragedyBerlusconi
That's bad too, undeniably
But we are talking the present moment. Two wrongs don't make a right
You don't understand the point do you
If they're being hypocrites, that means they have a different agenda
Nazi Germany didn't support western colonies fight against their colonizers out of the goodness of their heart
Then you have to ask yourself their real agenda is, but you refuse to do so because you like your romanticized idea of the west too much
- Jul 20, 2022·1 replyScratchin Mamba
You don't understand the point do you
If they're being hypocrites, that means they have a different agenda
Nazi Germany didn't support western colonies fight against their colonizers out of the goodness of their heart
Then you have to ask yourself their real agenda is, but you refuse to do so because you like your romanticized idea of the west too much
ok let's break down the real agenda then.
Hypothesis 1:
-the west wants another state within their umbrella who will buy their goods, supply their labour, advance their ideals.
Ok, that's a self interested motive. But who cares, the ukrainians clearly are ok with this themselves. If the ukrainians want in why should the west freeze them out out of fear of russia, that's appeasement.
Hypothesis 2:
the west wants to harm russia in some way.
the west has done nothing to touch russia in any conceivable form despite having nearly 30 years to do so. clearly they dont want to f*** with russia if russia just minds its own business and doesnt f*** with ukraine
- Jul 20, 2022·editedScratchin Mamba
You don't understand the point do you
If they're being hypocrites, that means they have a different agenda
Nazi Germany didn't support western colonies fight against their colonizers out of the goodness of their heart
Then you have to ask yourself their real agenda is, but you refuse to do so because you like your romanticized idea of the west too much
it also follows that if you can recognise russia as a self interested actor, why cant you recognise western europe as also self interested in this area.
it then becomes a matter of what ukrainians want, and it isnt russia.
one actor being self interested doesnt mean their side isnt worthy of any support at all
and yes, youre a communist. therefore youre not going to support either. fair enough. but even so, not all imperialist powers are equal. we'd all rather live under the US than Nazi germany if faced with a binary choice.