My s***worker thread gets locked but this stays open

but societal norms are informed by thoughts and beliefs, you can't really separate the two.

Let's take a larger scale example as well. We're indoctrinated into capitalism are we not? It's clearly the prevailing thought system in the world today. But, people are able to go against that and imagine a different system and have even tried to implement such systems, yes? If we can do that, why can't we do it for what are clearly learned behaviors? We have christains who believe gay people should have the right to marry, did they break free from indoctrination?

We won't have to really ban anything, because the whole doctrine of society will be one based on equality. And like I've also said, you can't ignore the role that systemic factors play into individual beliefs. Why does racism persist? Because people grew up in a system that taught them to be fearful of the other, that another race was inferior, that they were going to take something from them, that they were less intelligent, that they were more predisposed to crime etc., The only evidence I see that says we can't solve this thing is the fact that we currently live in a society where all those myths are able to persist, and we have leaders who perpetuate them. But that isn't convincing evidence. If we're going to work from the notion that one day we can have an alternative economic system to capitalism, which, since I know you're a democratic socialist you believe is possible, then I don't think it's a step to far to say we can also eliminate racism and bigotry, especially as a step to eliminating crime.

im pretty sure your thread devolved into ppl talking about their experiences with s***workers, to no fault of ur own

so basically what you would say is

death sentence is available only for those who have been caught in the act of a heinous crime like mass murder etc.,

but that simply being judged guilty of murder doesn't lead to you being executed

You have already agreed when you said that Dylann roof deserves to be executed lol you keep dancing over the facts that some people deserve to die.

Dont break it down. He understands that and just wants to argue semantics

You're skipping my whole point that's fundamental to my argument and position... My issue isn't whether or not some people should be executed... It's the actual death penalty and its implementation... I don't think anyone should be executed including Dylann Roof if its within a system that still leads to innocent people getting executed.

You are talking to talk. Name me one innocent person who executed by the death penalty? You cant because of the 1500 they have all been proven without doubt to be guilty. Stop this bullshit lol

deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/innocence/executed-but-possibly-innocent

there are many cases where someone was possibly innocent. there are also 150 or so cases where someone was on death row but then later exonerated. There's no reason to believe of the 1500 executed that there weren't ones who were innocent

What Kyle said, but there's also studies that estimate 4% of the time we've killed an innocent person on death row.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent&ved=2ahUKEwiVro7dhMPpAhVDQ80KHWfXCAUQFjAKegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1EzMoz2fQVxDnk5XgIo1TF&cf=1

You cant give me exact answers or one person that you know was innocent for a fact lol

Like I said some people deserve to die but not everyone on death row deserves to be executed.

Yes societal norms and laws are informed by thoughts and beliefs, but thoughts and beliefs don't have to be informed by societal norms and laws.... And there are many cases for this which is why I mentioned religious indoctrination.. That's a big distinction.... I'll also add how you mentioned things that we changed that had no basis in reality... The thoughts and beliefs that I've been referring to are things that have persisted since as far back in time as we can go.. Not just our society, but essentially every society we have documented.

We're not indoctrinated into capitalism... It's an economic system that people often participate in without second thought.. It doesn't necessarily inform or dictate a worldview... Many people don't actually think about the system of capitalism... How it works or anything like that... Many people share varying views on our economy and political system and some just don't care.... Is it possible for someone to be indoctrinated into believing in capitalism? Sure.

Yes we have Christians who believe that because they were taught to believe in a different denomination/sect... Or are non fundamentalist... We can demonstrate my point here exactly...

This religious person was raised and indoctrinated by fundamentalists and attended a church from a young age that teaches gays are sinning against God and are going to burn in hell... They believe this is as God commands and this informs their worldview.

Now tell me.. How do you make that person change their thoughts and beliefs? Without forcing them to disbelieve their religious teaching? You can't... You have to hope they're convinced, but we know people are inherently flawed and some will hold irrational views because they can't be convinced for a variety of reasons... we're all different and we all have different ways of coming to believe something... Many people simply lack a sound epistemology.

You're not making any clear distinctions on how it should be implemented, work, and be limited... so you're not saying anything... I maintain I'm against the death penalty until you explain how you would assure no one innocent is executed... Since you're not gonna do that.. It's pointless as a response to my position.

I would say we are indoctrinated into capitalism though. Near everything we are taught is an effort to reinforce a worldview that holds capitalism as the prevailing doctrine. It's the reason we are taught certain things in school, why anyone who even dares question the humanity of it is ostracized etc., Obviously the phenomena you describe, in which many people aren't even thinking about the system is actually the main way in which capitalism is allowed to exist and perpetuate itself. Because it espouses this idea that we are free, especially in regards to our economic choices, many of us are led to believe that their is no greater system at work guiding our choices, our lives, or our outcomes. its the great trick of capitalism. if an individual fails, its their fault, and not the system. this has been something society at large has been indoctrinated into believing. It's even better for capitalism if people just don't care.

As for the religious person, the fundamentalist, let's say what you're saying is true. That these children growing up in these households will be solely influenced by their parents and not other factors (any sociologist will tell you this isn't how it works btw, they are just as easily influenced by their friends, social groups, school settings etc as they are a parent or church). So let's say they harbor these bad thoughts towards gay people. I still don't see any reason why they should be more likely to commit crime if the conditions for committing crimes are removed. And even then, this goes back to my original premise of rehabilitation centers. If they choose to commit crimes against gay people, and go to these centers, doesn't this seem like the perfect place to rid them of indoctrination? As I said, it's all a process. Maybe it takes generations, but I see no reason as to why that makes it a cause not worthy to pursue.

You are not against the death penalty, you are against how it is being implemented

Yeah but the ppl in prison don't end up dead

a lot of liars getting cleared out of that therapy

no, but better rehabilitation therapy treatment & neurological/psychological studying should exist.

to me you can have both.

you can still try to rehabilitate & learn from someone even if they aren't ever gonna be free.

we do do both already to some degree, but in America at least, it needs to be done on a wider scale & have more instances.

to me, you can do both.

I can't support the death penalty if I don't support it's implementation... There is no arguing this in a vacuum.

I think most people would agree if you excluded violent offenders but there’s no way people are gonna let murderers and rapists get away with going to a rehab facility and then released back to the public lol.

And plus that’s not a deterrent for crimes. Like doing a year or 2 in a rehab facility isnt gonna deter anyone from killing somebody

I disagree with you on capitalism and indoctrination.... In my experience no one's ostracized for critiquing the economic system and even if they were that solely doesn't make it indoctrination... when people don't even think about it or hold a certain view on it... That's not really indoctrination either imo... Indoctrination of capitalism would be like teaching and impressing upon someone likely from a younger age that capitalism is the system we must accept without question and getting them to parrot free market talking points and spoon feeding them Ayn Rand books lol

We don't have to assume what I said here is true... It's demonstrable as we know there are many fundamentalists who think and believe just like that... I even know many of them personally.. I never claimed they're solely influenced by their parents... I claimed that their family and upbringing has the greatest impact on it... This is obvious... Why do they hold these irrational or unjustifiable beliefs in the first place and maintain them? They weren't born with these beliefs... it was impressed upon them by their parents at a young age and in many cases they may
be ostracized from family for disobedience... That's a greater weight on shaping how you think as you grow older and leads you to confirm and reinforce biases for years.. What would be the condition for removing such a crime in that case? If they were to act violently towards a gay person and use their religion as reasons for their actions... So many people in this country vote ❎ strictly on religious lines(anti abortion, anti gay, religious "freedom") and often against their own interests while not ever realizing because they're doing "God's work"

Bigoted beliefs can work in a similar way... There will always be people who think irrationally... You can't eradicate that as people are flawed beings... We can go beyond religion, but I used it cuz it best makes the point.. There are people who believe all sorts of ridiculous claims based on weak or no evidence... People who believe in any conspiracy over the official story almost every time(and refuse to be convinced otherwise) ... People who think they've been abducted by aliens... People who think they've been to another dimension... These beliefs aren't based in social norms or laws either..

Some people are extremely cynical... Some people are very gullible... And some people are just skeptics... We're all different.. You cannot control thoughts and beliefs by societal norms and laws how you've stated since many people don't utilize a sound epistemology as I've said and thats clearly demonstrable.. You have a massive burden of proof making a claim like that... Also ridding someone of indoctrination isn't a definitive thing... People who are indoctrinated typically don't realize it or think they are and are often not open to be convinced otherwise... Back to the main point... We can't stop crime... We can't stop hate... We can't stop demonization.. We can only hope to reduce it.

Exactly my point lol and they still have the possibility of being found innocent.

@Synopsis Also the part that can't be overstated in our previous discussion on murderers and violent crimes... You think this will be better for society, but you realize you'll need society to get on board and support this... The victims of violent crimes and their families are all a part of society... Many victims and other people in society flat out won't support the notion... "murderers deserve an opportunity at a second chance"... For many clear reasons I've already mentioned... The victim has no second chance to do anything.. They're DEAD.

The murderer gets another opportunity to potentially kill again.

We agree there WILL be some cases where this happens...

Is that justice? How can a system that allows this to happen at all not be considered unjust?

You need to personalize this because you're advocating for a system where this will happen to victims within the society... You can't expect other people to accept an injustice you're not ok with happening to yourself.

So are you ok with a system where a murderer of one of your family members or loved ones is freed, but then ends up murdering again.

That is a position you must honestly and openly take or you must alter what you're proposing. 🤷‍♂️

If you are serving life in prison you are basically dead let's keep it real lol