I think if it's definitely murder with intent, then life should be the sentence.... I'm fine with it being a more humane rehabilitation facility as you propose and finding a way to solve some of the problems, but that's justice... One could argue that's mercy... They can get better and hopefully change, but they gave up their right to be apart of society when they took ALL rights from another... They at least get to keep their life... I would feel open to your position if only we could guarantee that no one released would ever murder again, but we know that's not possible and you know it's a given that there will be cases of released murderers killing again... And that would be a far greater injustice and no they're not worth that risk.... You're gonna have a hard time making the case they are to the rest of society and it's the part you're missing the most in this position that I think you should think about further.

To an extent
Most criminals should be rehabilitated but there are also many others that should just rot in jail
Why does a murderer ever deserve a second chance.

their status as a human being

Yes but they clearly had no regard for another person's status as a human being.

You right

Let's just kill all the murderers who killed unjustly

Also I would add... No one has to murder anyone for their survival.

You may have to kill someone in self defense, but no one has to murder anyone for survival.

No that doesn't work either.

Why

Yes this is often the hardest part to get people on board with, that its worth the risk. As I've said recidivism for violent crimes is already relatively low, but most people do take the position that even in one instance of a murder potentially getting out and committing another murder is one too many and i don't think thats necessarily an incorrect position.

And as some people have said in this thread, theyd be fine with doing the rehab thing for non murderers/rapists but keeping jail for them. but, in my opinion, leaving any vestiges of the old system simply sets the new one up for failure. I am willing to give everyone their shot at a second chance. All the research, data, experiences has shown me that punishment isn't effective, that its much more effective to attack the causes of crime in a preventative manner, that people are often become criminals because of their environment.

the only thing i would be willing to consider on this is perhaps minimum sentences for a certain type of murderers/rapists.

I mean in reality this is mostly true. but there are tons of people who lead lives where they believe that murder is necessity. gang violence/culture in particular leads to this. hell even the stress of poverty can.

Imagine dumping money and time into a worthless individual who has already proved they are a danger to society

Yes and that's a tragedy. perhaps we should try to find out why and help them if we can.

This is a terrible objection on your part since we do that already.

i wish life was this idealistic but it's not
We should greatly reform the prison system and I think people would be in favor of more rehabilitation
However, there is absolutely no way you would be able to convince more than half the country that we shouldn't punish people that do abhorrent crimes.
Getting rid of punishment all together would not play well with people on any side of the political spectrum.
Even most leftists probably disagree with this take I'm sure

You can improve rehab facilities as much as you want but sometimes people are just too far gone

Because we have a broken justice system that has led to hundreds of people being killed only to find out they were innocent posthumously... If we execute just one innocent man... Which is a given in this system, then the death penalty is useless.

Whether there are people who believe that murder is a necessity doesn't excuse it or make it reasonable... There are also plenty people from those surroundings and that culture who don't murder people and know it's wrong.

I know. I'm saying we could, in my opinion, very easily alleviate the conditions that lead to those types of murders which was moreso just an add on than anything, not addressing the overall point of your other post.

I wouldn't think making all the changes that we pretty much agree on, but maintaining a life sentence would be keeping a vestige of the old system that would be somehow more problematic than the alternative... Heck in our current system we still have capital punishment... You even agree that those who cannot be rehabilitated should stay there for life... I'm just making the case why they all should..

You said you don't think that's necessarily an incorrect position... How could that not be the correct one? How could the alternative be correct? I said even one instance would be too many, but we know if we think critically and honestly it would likely be multiple instances... No matter how low the rate.. There's no strong argument for this risk being taken on someone whose already taken the life of another.

That's a different issue of trying to prove someone is guilty

We're talking about someone who did that s***

Oh s*** haven’t seen u since KTT1

I want you to read what you just posted and think about it... How do we determine that? They're directly connected... It's the same system. 🤦‍♂️

Im ONLY talking about punishment

NOT about proving if somebody is guilty or not

You're adding another variable that we are excluding

Bruh you know this is bullshit. Nobody is in a bad enough situation in life to where non self defense murder is necessary.
The stress of poverty???
This is out of touch to an extremely stupid level. Poverty causes violence but no poor person thinks of murder as a way out

No one said they think of it as a way out.