Womanpuncher69

5y

ah ai I get ya just interested what would u consider to be the full roots of marxism, since revisionism especially with Maoism is a huge thing so would these synthesis ideology be consider revisionist or something else?

aktvinye meropriya

5y

I think he recognizes that Marx is useful for as what is described in the article as “hardware” (economics, systems, institutions) while China needs to develop and instil its own "software" (culture, values, attitudes) that offers an alternative to "western liberal individualism".

Wangs influence is pretty widely reported and described all over in the same way the article did so I believe it.

As per the current party line towards Mao I believe most of their criticism is directed at specifically the cultural revolution while stuff like the land reforms are praised. Could be wrong here tho...

krishna bound

5y

This is basically my understanding as well from having read some of his work, which is basically not distinct from thinkers like Aflaq and their views of Marx. Also to reiterate I didn't mean to imply there was literal anti-Mao sentiment, just that the emerging philosophical ideologies are increasingly distant from their roots.

aktvinye meropriya

5y

Wish the book he wrote about America in the 80s had an english translation I'd be all over that

krishna bound

5y

You can find partial english translations of parts of it (and lots of other stuff he's written) in other academic papers which cite him or are meant to (essentially) be CCP outreach to westerners (such as those Insight Academic Papers if youve seen those). Unfortunately I was still in college when I was accessing these taking advantage of college credential access to academic databases, let me see if i can find them on like JSTOR or something.

aktvinye meropriya

5y

Dope, this guy has an amateur translation with deepL which is pretty good but it would be a cool thing to have a hard copy of

https://twitter.com/JaakWaller/status/1353100985325903872?s=20

Womanpuncher69

5y

ah ai I get ya just interested what would u consider to be the full roots of marxism, since revisionism especially with Maoism is a huge thing so would these synthesis ideology be consider revisionist or something else?

krishna bound

5y

okay actually i was partially off in remembering here, i actually managed to find some of his work once more and he literally rips apart Maoism and the Cultural Revolution and criticizes China from weirdly liberal standpoints like not being democratic enough, the one party system, etc.

https://www.readingthechinadream.com/wang-huning-the-culture-revolution-and-reform-of-chinas-political-system.html

just some notes though, he did issue some revisions over time apparently, and this was also written before America vs America so perhaps he's changed somewhat over time.

Although with that said yeah I wasn't misremembering the HM thing, you can look at the linked America vs America translated document in the above thread where he also straight up says in all ways except literally that he doesn't believe in HM lol

Womanpuncher69

5y

· edited

what do u mean by HM ? and yeah im reading the Angela thing rn lol

NVM I got it historical materialism

krishna bound

5y

historical materialism sorry

krishna bound

5y

okay actually i was partially off in remembering here, i actually managed to find some of his work once more and he literally rips apart Maoism and the Cultural Revolution and criticizes China from weirdly liberal standpoints like not being democratic enough, the one party system, etc.

https://www.readingthechinadream.com/wang-huning-the-culture-revolution-and-reform-of-chinas-political-system.html

just some notes though, he did issue some revisions over time apparently, and this was also written before America vs America so perhaps he's changed somewhat over time.

Although with that said yeah I wasn't misremembering the HM thing, you can look at the linked America vs America translated document in the above thread where he also straight up says in all ways except literally that he doesn't believe in HM lol

krishna bound

5y

okay actually i was partially off in remembering here, i actually managed to find some of his work once more and he literally rips apart Maoism and the Cultural Revolution and criticizes China from weirdly liberal standpoints like not being democratic enough, the one party system, etc.

https://www.readingthechinadream.com/wang-huning-the-culture-revolution-and-reform-of-chinas-political-system.html

just some notes though, he did issue some revisions over time apparently, and this was also written before America vs America so perhaps he's changed somewhat over time.

Although with that said yeah I wasn't misremembering the HM thing, you can look at the linked America vs America translated document in the above thread where he also straight up says in all ways except literally that he doesn't believe in HM lol

Womanpuncher69

5y

god damn he hates the cultural revolution, would always be interested to see if any new socialist state arrive that tend to be pro cultural revolution how they would interact with modern china or at end of the day realpolitiks would win again

krishna bound

5y

okay actually i was partially off in remembering here, i actually managed to find some of his work once more and he literally rips apart Maoism and the Cultural Revolution and criticizes China from weirdly liberal standpoints like not being democratic enough, the one party system, etc.

https://www.readingthechinadream.com/wang-huning-the-culture-revolution-and-reform-of-chinas-political-system.html

just some notes though, he did issue some revisions over time apparently, and this was also written before America vs America so perhaps he's changed somewhat over time.

Although with that said yeah I wasn't misremembering the HM thing, you can look at the linked America vs America translated document in the above thread where he also straight up says in all ways except literally that he doesn't believe in HM lol

aktvinye meropriya

5y

Yeah this is interesting I'm not sure if something is being lost in translation or his opinions changed so drastically after his visit to america lol

Womanpuncher69

5y

god damn he hates the cultural revolution, would always be interested to see if any new socialist state arrive that tend to be pro cultural revolution how they would interact with modern china or at end of the day realpolitiks would win again

krishna bound

5y

yeah this is what i was referring to in the rejections of Maoism in the long post i made, but i have to say, it's way more critical than i remember it being. I think it's also interesting his considers things like the Anti-Rightist Struggle a tragedy - in my experience people who like Mao who reject the CR still tend to embrace that one, so that's something. His thoughts on rejection of virtually everything post-Lenin combined with the anti-HM stuff in America vs America is kinda what I was referring to in my posts about him, albeit to tbh reading it fresh once more its way worse than i remember it being lmao. although like i said, it's just a slight feeling that he may hate the CR because his father initially fought for Chiang Kai-Shek and his upbringing was based in access to foreign literature which he shouldn't have had access to because of it.
What countries which are pro-CR could develop socialist states? I feel like it's hard to imagine something like the CR taking place in the modern era. Or do you just mean like theoretically

aktvinye meropriya

5y

Don't think anyone in the current CCP likes the cultural revolution

krishna bound

5y

the edit/follow-up from 2012 (which i definitely hadnt prior read) actually seems to double down on it further. i have no idea if this is just a case of poor translation or what.

aktvinye meropriya

5y

Well I guess his larger abstract idea that "marxism doesnt address cultural values" and "cultural values are important and should be uniform through the state" remain unchanged it just seems like which specific cultural values those are has changed

Sloth

5y

My local psl chapter is a bunch of dyed hair redditors

Idc about dyed hair but if you're trying to "convert" the average american, having a dyed mohawk is not a good first impression

Womanpuncher69

5y

I was mainly talking theoretically I dont think any AES upholds the Cultural Revolution, its mainly just maoist groups out there, if the PCP in Peru didnt massively f*** up maybe there, they got the closest to winning a protracted peoples war not including China of course. The other groups just have been stuck in strategic defence for what like 50 years now for both India and Philippines, its getting a little disheartening.

In Theory terms the cultural revolution is the last line of defence against a rising red capitalist class within the party, if the two line struggle against revisionism doesn't end up working, then its cultural revolution time baby lol. I guess a more concrete way of looking at it is that socialist projects will have twist and turns like how France had the monarchist reversals and the republicans reversing the reversal and such.

The interesting geopolitical part of this within communist movements is that since maoist see China currently as a capitalist nation using socialism essentially as an aesthetic, they would support another Maoist revolution would them but if he revolution that occur how much would it weaken China currently and how much stronger would it make US imperialism, I usually go on the side idk man.

How would it look in actuality I have no idea or if it would even be possible, other than vague slogans of bombard the headquarters

krishna bound

5y

Thanks, that's all pretty interesting. Like I said I don't frequent these circles so I didn't really know most of that, although I do know the argument of "china is state capitalist with socialist aesthetics" vs "china is the last bastion of communism" is obviously widespread.
That's a good question though about if a Maoist revolution would simply make US imperialism stronger. I suppose the answer there has to basically be yes? If a Sino-Soviet split essentially made the US's power way stronger, then presumably a chinese self-split would basically do the same?

Cudderwalks

5y

@krishna_bound If you have questions about Maoism, I can help. I'm like the resident KTT Maoist