Nort

5y

do you have any interest in worker ownership over the means of production?

sniper

5y

China is a neoliberal state, by definition, and the West claims it is following Marxism-Leninism, but I don't even believe it's that simple. They are two dogs of the same global capitalist hegemony.

Nort

5y

do you have any interest in worker ownership over the means of production?

deadacc

5y

"the West claims it is following Marxism-Leninism"
okay

I'll ask you again would you prefer a world where China was not a ML project but instead a blatant neoliberal capitalist state?

sniper

5y

China isn't even close to fulfilling the proposed goals of MLism, there will be no abolition of the state, it will keep going. Marx said that the state should be abolished and control should be given directly to the workers themselves. This is what the soviets were, before Lenin broke them when he took power.

deadacc

5y

i think you should read state and revolution. i wouldn't consider myself to be of any tendency but the book was much much more than what i thought it would be about and i would highly recommend it.

deadacc

5y

its a simple question sniper

sniper

5y

this is the issue, most MLs only get their understanding of Marx from Lenin and his contemporaries and don't engage with the work on its own.

deadacc

5y

i literally read engels. state and revolution is about much deeper questions than MLism

sniper

5y

I stand firm bro, it is state capitalism like an ML state should be, in theory, but it has much more free market elements economically.

deadacc

5y

not about whether its socialist or not but about whether you'd rather a world where China was a blatant American-style neoliberal capitalist country or what it is now

sniper

5y

I don't like either China or America, I don't like the nation-state at all. I want to do away with it, like Marx and even Engels said, although Engels was slightly more authoritarian than Marx

deadacc

5y

i get that but as an even nominally "socialist" project if there were to be a successful revolution in whatever country you live in, would you rather it be in a world where Communist China exists or one where it doesn't

sniper

5y

· edited

I don't really care because China hasn't achieved communism, I mean, that's what everyone's waiting for, right, and people have been waiting for about 70 years. The whole ideology's core ("state socialism") is just sitting on a pinky promise for the state leadership to benevolently dissolve the state and relinquish their power into a worker-controlled egalitarian society once the material conditions are met.

I mean, by Marx's definition, it's not "Communist China", they are still capitalists.

sniper

5y

I don't really care because China hasn't achieved communism, I mean, that's what everyone's waiting for, right, and people have been waiting for about 70 years. The whole ideology's core ("state socialism") is just sitting on a pinky promise for the state leadership to benevolently dissolve the state and relinquish their power into a worker-controlled egalitarian society once the material conditions are met.

I mean, by Marx's definition, it's not "Communist China", they are still capitalists.

deadacc

5y

i believe so. there is nothing to convince me otherwise. but even if they don't, the world is better off China being oriented the way it is than any right deviation until that point.

until the day of your idealized socialism is reality, and even past that day, having and supporting sympathetic socialist projects is much more important than the sectarianism you commit to every day.

sniper

5y

How is it "idealized socialism" when they aren't even socialist by definition? How is it gonna reach socialism if it just perpetuates the state over and over again?

Materialist a***ysis of history shows why you can't use state power to abolish the state, and why every attempt has resulted in the opposite effect, that ends up re-creating capitalist conditions, and at best, socdem-esque "reformed" capitalism with a nationalistic bent.

Sloth

5y

Yes, via the state.

Sloth

5y

The promise will be fulfilled with Xi

Nort

5y

how

deadacc

5y

xi literally promised it by 2050 and he probably will continue to be renewed for president until its achieved

Nort

5y

so i’m just meant to take him at his word?

deadacc

5y

you don't have to he's still gonna keep doing things the way he does regardless. i do personally cuz im convinced based on the current trajectory of things but nobody will truly know until the time it happens.