SCOUSER

4y

What about the hypocrisy of the people who are supposedly against imperialism but don't want Ukraine to be able to defend themselves against their former occupier and oppressor

Scratchin Mamba

4y

Fighting imperialism by joining the military alliance that invaded Libya, Afghanistan and Yugoslavia

Westoid brain

SCOUSER

4y

Lmao where I say they were fighting imperialism

I just said Ukraine tryna protect itself from Russia and that's understandable

I think it's kinda silly to talk about hypocrisies on a global scale like this. Powers are going to extend their influence as much as I can in rival to other powers, s*** always been like that and always will. That can't be doubted, seems childish to talk about hypocrisy

Just in terms of Ukraine itself I can't blame them for being anti Russia same way I couldn't blame any country that NATO (or any of the countries in it) has invaded/colonized in the past for looking to China or whatever

Scratchin Mamba

4y

The thing is that these tensions weren't always this severe, until the West backed the color revolution 2014 joining NATO was overwhelmingly unpopular. It's Russia's response to Western meddling in Ukraine that changed this...

They could prevent Russian aggression by making good on their promise to not expand NATO any further to the east, but they won't, they want to provoke Russia.

And tbh I don't really care for any appeals to sovereignty when it's about sovereignty to join an organization that themselves doesn't care for the sovereignty of other weaker nations.

TragedyBerlusconi

4y

we are obviously going to disagree, but the shift in attitude toward NATO occurred after the annexation of Crimea and insurgency in the Donbass.

Even after the 2004 Orange Revolution, NATO membership was not hiughly desired at all, and the shift towards nato membership didnt occur immediately following Maidan.

it is more likely that Russia's actions towards Ukraine amplified insecurities and produced conditions for NATO to become more popular.

This is not an endorsement of NATO, but i can totally see why this is the case

Scratchin Mamba

4y

until the West backed the color revolution 2014 joining NATO was overwhelmingly unpopular. It's Russia's response to Western meddling in Ukraine that changed this...

Please reread this part carefully

SCOUSER

4y

What about the hypocrisy of the people who are supposedly against imperialism but don't want Ukraine to be able to defend themselves against their former occupier and oppressor

gabapentin

4y

im irrationally refusing to believe this is actually gonna happen until the moment it kicks off

Offline

4y

Ukrainians (correctly) believe, as do most Eastern Europeans, that imperialism is inevitable, and given that they are at the borderlands between the West (historically a Germanic state, but now the EU/NATO) and Russia (historically Turkey was a third imperial power in the region, but now they are not as significant), they must make a choice. By some margin, they prefer to live in the Western system/under American imperialism than the Russian system/imperialism.

The reason for this has little to do with democracy and liberalism and much to do with economics. Participation in the Western system will (or at least such is the perception/belief) increase prosperity and decrease corruption, with more benefits arising from closer integration (or seen another way, greater subjugation to the Washington-London-Brussels axis). Participation in the Russian sphere empirically does not bring the same economic results (compare Poland and Romania to Ukraine and Belarus), therefore the Russian argument is centered on societal values, culture, and tradition. Joining the West brings wealth, but with the wealth come contemporary Western social values and culture, perhaps the spiritual hollowing out of society. Of course, one visit to Moscow should let you know why this argument is unconvincing and Eastern Europe looks to the West (Western values and culture are gaining ground in Russia without the attendant economic growth - if that happens either way, you might as well get rich).

A point here is that while for Ukraine economic integration in the West means Europe, culture and social values are nearly 100% American, as even Western Europe is at this point under American cultural hegemony. However, countries such as Hungary and Poland are trying to play a balancing act between social conservatism and reaping the economic benefits of the West. This project is a difficult one, as seen in Hungarian overtures to Turkey and tensions between Warsaw and Brussels.

RoomOnFire

4y

Mfs really cape for Russia here huh

Yuzzy

4y

More that some are Anti West

Gojira

4y

What we are seeing here is the resurgence of the Soviet Union

Scratchin Mamba

4y

Bruh if it was i would be in russia signing up for the army rn

Gojira

4y

What we are seeing here is the resurgence of the Soviet Union