nato beyond garbage lmao

Ukraine becoming part of NATO is a legitimate security threat for Russia. Russia annexed the Crimea for security reasons as well.

How

For the same reason that Canada or Mexico joining the Warsaw pact would be.

Except it would be even worse because NATO has a history of imperialist invasions that are not even close to being defensive in nature and was explicitly established in case that the alliance might have to go to war with Russia.

I swear r/europe is the worst sub oat

I love how people feel superior for understanding the history of previous instances of American imperialism, but whenever there is one in the present moment they're like "this is different I swear!!"

Ukrainians (correctly) believe, as do most Eastern Europeans, that imperialism is inevitable, and given that they are at the borderlands between the West (historically a Germanic state, but now the EU/NATO) and Russia (historically Turkey was a third imperial power in the region, but now they are not as significant), they must make a choice. By some margin, they prefer to live in the Western system/under American imperialism than the Russian system/imperialism.

The reason for this has little to do with democracy and liberalism and much to do with economics. Participation in the Western system will (or at least such is the perception/belief) increase prosperity and decrease corruption, with more benefits arising from closer integration (or seen another way, greater subjugation to the Washington-London-Brussels axis). Participation in the Russian sphere empirically does not bring the same economic results (compare Poland and Romania to Ukraine and Belarus), therefore the Russian argument is centered on societal values, culture, and tradition. Joining the West brings wealth, but with the wealth come contemporary Western social values and culture, perhaps the spiritual hollowing out of society. Of course, one visit to Moscow should let you know why this argument is unconvincing and Eastern Europe looks to the West (Western values and culture are gaining ground in Russia without the attendant economic growth - if that happens either way, you might as well get rich).

A point here is that while for Ukraine economic integration in the West means Europe, culture and social values are nearly 100% American, as even Western Europe is at this point under American cultural hegemony. However, countries such as Hungary and Poland are trying to play a balancing act between social conservatism and reaping the economic benefits of the West. This project is a difficult one, as seen in Hungarian overtures to Turkey and tensions between Warsaw and Brussels.

@Scratchin_Bandit my thoughts on imperialism in this situation, gets a bit (extremely) rambly but whatever

You’re not wrong necessarily but I think the key is that imperialism is a background assumption for Ukraine, and then they move from there

There's a lot of truth to this for sure, but Ukrainian polls on joining NATO were overwhelmingly opposed to that until 2014. Generally Eastern Europe absolutely would prefer to have stronger economic ties with the West as opposed to Russia, but (even though these things are strongly related) it's a different story when it comes to geopolitics and definitely when it comes to a military alliance. Non-alignment has historically been a popular position as well.

Yeah I would agree, economic integration with the West is favored while political integration and the prospect of cultural westernization get mixed reception/are more controversial within countries.

Of course it varies by country too for historical reasons, like Serbia being very pro-Russian and Albania being very pro-American. From my perspective as a Romanian, here political integration with the West is actually broadly favored as a safeguard against Russian encroachment due to our poor historical relations (tensions over Moldova). Generally whether a country is pro-Russia or pro-West politically comes down to which imperialism was worse for them more recently. Another factor is that while Ukraine is in some ways one of the most pro-Russian countries, another segment of the Ukrainian population is extremely anti-Russian. This is basically the central question of national identity and future in Ukraine, while in other countries it is not as important.

However, even though Romania is one of the countries in Eastern Europe which most favors the West, even here there is definitely a bit of a backlash to the idea of total westernization. Interesting balancing act for all of Eastern Europe, and I think it sets the background for the current tensions and is something that hasn’t really been mentioned in this thread. The Russian perspective itself does have merit, but people have already talked about it.

I'm really pleased with the discussion this has spawned on page 12

Anyone here speak Russian?

Why?

Got this putin video with subtitles but I wanna see if the subs are correct

Link it

I’m a watch it tomorrow and let you know

Yeah arm them

I'm team Ukraine Klitschko would beat the hell out of Putin short ass

It is from their perspective. It all is perspective tho and i don't think it's a legitimate threat.

Russia also already has NATO countries at their borders. And they mostly joined NATO cause of the fear of a Russian invasion.

This Russian strategy might actually not be it, since other non-NATO countries see this too and they actually drive them into the arms of NATO

Klitschko would beat anyones ass lol

Would you say the same thing if China had a military alliance with the expressed purpose of possibly going to war with the West trying to get Canada, Mexico and idk Finland to join them?

You're right, it is all about perspective, and you have the Western one. Of course you could never be a threat to countries, because the West is just so known for being peaceful and not abusing their power in geopolitics

It's all perspective is what i'm trying to say. And for many people in the West that would be a security threat, just like i understand where Putin is coming from rn.

I just don't think it's a legitimate threat tho. If NATO wanted they could've already attacked and defeated Russia, but they didn't (for example in the 90s). So i don't think it's a legitimate threat.

Just like i don't see what the perks are from Ukraine joining NATO and that i can see why a part of them wants to join. Putin has to decide now what he wants

Of course they wouldn't attack Russia in the 90s when they had their puppet leader Yeltsin in place lmao what kinda argument is that

This is just delusion, how is it not a security threat that the military f***-Russia club wants to expand and encircle Russia lmao.

Please seriously answer my question, would you say the same s*** if Finland, Mexico and Canada were going to join the Warsaw pact, especially if Russia promised that the Warsaw pact wouldn't move further to the West?

Like the ridiculousness of how that question sounds is already your answer lmao

What about the hypocrisy of the people who are supposedly against imperialism but don't want Ukraine to be able to defend themselves against their former occupier and oppressor