Babaláwo

2mo

X-men was never what?

YANDHI

2mo

Correct but i think the framework was always there. Lee and Kirby just didn't realize what they were doing and ended giving up on what was their lowest-selling book. It works if you stick to a mutant-human divide and fears over X-gene's threat to humans. If you just throw mutants on the Avengers then no.

They were literally writing stories about bigotry, state-sanctioned oppression, and protecting people against a world that hated them because they were different at the height of several social justice movements. It just wasn't the masterplan Lee would later want people to believe. X-Men easily could have just been additional heroes like F4 and Avengers but nope for some reason they were specifically deemed outcasts and had this unique dynamic

Claremont took the pen, immediately saw the allegories, pieced it together with tweaks and far more diverse 2nd generation of mutants.

Cherrywine001

2mo

X-men was not initially an allegory. That who idea became a thing years after their inception. It’s cool and all, but to be frank, I don’t think Disney marvel has good enough writers to tackle the anything beyond a surface level “us vs them” dynamic, so it absolutely should not be a focal point of the reboot especially since it’s harder to justify in a lived-in universe of super powered people/gods

ilgnd

2mo

are we at the point where we are just accepting that the biggest studio in the world doesn't have actual talent?

what a world

Cherrywine001

2mo

Yea pretty much til they prove otherwise

Cherrywine001

2mo

X-men was not initially an allegory. That who idea became a thing years after their inception. It’s cool and all, but to be frank, I don’t think Disney marvel has good enough writers to tackle the anything beyond a surface level “us vs them” dynamic, so it absolutely should not be a focal point of the reboot especially since it’s harder to justify in a lived-in universe of super powered people/gods

Oblivion X

2mo

They killing her lmao.

But yeah she shouldn't be storm

shaleirose

2mo

in a lived-in universe of super powered people/gods

I think this actually makes the allegory work better. The bigotry against them should be illogical in the same way that real-life racism and homophobia and other forms of bigotry are illogical.

The MCU is a universe where heroes are adored, praised, and worshipped. Introducing mutants and having the human population be in fear of them simply because they were born that way is closer to how actual forms of bigotry operate in real life.

If mutants are the only super-powered beings in an entire universe, then the fear of them is more justifiable

Cherrywine001

2mo

A very recent MCU release sets the precedent that fear for mutants is justifiable. I personally wouldn’t blame people for being afraid of them after that loose cannon went on a tear like that.

Also, I think all telepaths should die

Cherrywine001

2mo

A very recent MCU release sets the precedent that fear for mutants is justifiable. I personally wouldn’t blame people for being afraid of them after that loose cannon went on a tear like that.

Also, I think all telepaths should die

green man

2mo

Where did the rumor originate?

shaleirose

2mo

But it's not justifiable, and in fact still illogical when:

1) there have been numerous heroes & villains to go on a tear like that, and heroes as a whole are still accepted in the MCU

2) Jean Grey didn't do what she did because she's a mutant, she did it because she was trying to find her sister

Therefore, it's not justifiable and the allegory for real-world bigotry still holds up.

Also, Jean is just one person of the larger mutant group. It mirrors real-world bigotry in that way as well: how people will hate an entire section of people due to the actions of a few

Cherrywine001

2mo

Heroes are known variables in the MCU. They have track records and a public image. Hulk is known to be a terrifying loose cannon by the public already. Everyone around him treats him with caution. People were visibly shaken at hulks rampage in AoU, then he got shot off into space as a result. Sokovia accords got pushed because normal humans were getting fed up with the innocent casualties. Mind you, everything leading up to that was basically accidental collateral damage caused by heroes trying to save lives

Jean did straight up awful s*** intentionally. She entered civilians minds and controlled their bodies as a means to an end and barely seemed remorseful about it. I think she even killed a guy. Yes, she didnt commit these acts because she’s a mutant, but she killed/hurt/traumatized thousands of people to reach her goals using her mutant abilities. Bear in mind these actions are the very first public exposure to mutants that MCU citizens will have. Also, she’s not justified in mind controlling civs just because DoDC killed her sister.

At this very moment, it is NOT illogical for people to fear mutants. I don’t see how this is a debate. These are not people who just look different. They are not popular superheroes with established track records. Some mutants have genuinely dangerous abilities, some of them can’t control their abilities, some of them would rather use their abilities to do awful things, and it could be anybody. Imagine any random person being born as a walking WMD. Now imagine finding out there are more people like Jean grey running around. People would be terrified irl.

In the future, they could possibly make the fear less justified by making the majority of mutants regular people with mundane abilities and regular moral standing, but I don’t think they should because that would be boring. Again, the whole “allegory” thing should be subtle and not the driving theme of x-men/mutants, because it’s already hard to make it make sense in the MCU as it is

Cherrywine001

2mo

Heroes are known variables in the MCU. They have track records and a public image. Hulk is known to be a terrifying loose cannon by the public already. Everyone around him treats him with caution. People were visibly shaken at hulks rampage in AoU, then he got shot off into space as a result. Sokovia accords got pushed because normal humans were getting fed up with the innocent casualties. Mind you, everything leading up to that was basically accidental collateral damage caused by heroes trying to save lives

Jean did straight up awful s*** intentionally. She entered civilians minds and controlled their bodies as a means to an end and barely seemed remorseful about it. I think she even killed a guy. Yes, she didnt commit these acts because she’s a mutant, but she killed/hurt/traumatized thousands of people to reach her goals using her mutant abilities. Bear in mind these actions are the very first public exposure to mutants that MCU citizens will have. Also, she’s not justified in mind controlling civs just because DoDC killed her sister.

At this very moment, it is NOT illogical for people to fear mutants. I don’t see how this is a debate. These are not people who just look different. They are not popular superheroes with established track records. Some mutants have genuinely dangerous abilities, some of them can’t control their abilities, some of them would rather use their abilities to do awful things, and it could be anybody. Imagine any random person being born as a walking WMD. Now imagine finding out there are more people like Jean grey running around. People would be terrified irl.

In the future, they could possibly make the fear less justified by making the majority of mutants regular people with mundane abilities and regular moral standing, but I don’t think they should because that would be boring. Again, the whole “allegory” thing should be subtle and not the driving theme of x-men/mutants, because it’s already hard to make it make sense in the MCU as it is

Oblivion X

2mo

Yeah this is kinda where the race allegory of x-men and mutants falls a part.

With race, racism is very illogical because no one race is more dangerous than the other. But with mutants they are objectively dangerous especially if untrained

Like you said the parallel needs to be light and not so heavy handed for it to work