DEL_DVYg

5y

seems like that wont get the most out of bruno. we just need Haaland and everything will work out

DwindlingSun

5y

What chances has VDB got? Mans been given less minutes in the league than Van Dijk managed to clock by October.

And how we gonna blame the board/scouts yet absolve Ole here. He's got a veto on transfers. Scouts recommend an abundant amount of players and the board did their job and payed up when asked to.

VDB was brought in because Bruno was knackered at the end of last season. Now this season we're s***ter than expected and Ole still doesn't understand the importance of rotation and doesn't have faith in the rest of the team when Bruno is benched.

It also doesn't exactly help when Ole doesn't seem to have a clue where he wants him playing. He's played him in CM, AM, LM. At least let the guy build some consistency and understanding of the team dynamic and style.

The first (of 2) league games that VDB started in was against Southampton back in November and he was great in that game. The vast majority of his other minutes coming in games where he's on to see out the game for 10-15 mins if that. Or in really weak starting 11s in cup games with a bunch of players shoehorned together who were already on the fringe and lacking sharpness - Lingard, Ighalo, Williams, Mata, Matic, Fosu-Mensah etc.

Obviously and rightly so his confidence and sharpness is in the toilet. Any player would need a solid string of games to build that back and show what they can do. He hasn't been given that, simple as. VDB aint just suddenly become a s*** player. He proved his quality at Ajax. There's a reason he was linked with every top team in Europe and had clocked as many minutes at Ajax as he did. You give the guy barely any minutes in a new team then what do you expect. Especially when our attack has been so poor this season in their movement, tempo and finishing. Complete different wavelength to what he is accustomed to.

Grenouille

5y

I completely agree on Solskjaer's reluctance and inability to adequately rotate -- Maguire, Wan Bissaka, Rashford, and Fernandes are ran into the ground because Solskjaer is terrified of seeing out matches without them. It's a very big concern, and one of the bigger gripes I have with him as a manager.

The van De Beek stuff is interesting. I agree entirely he hasn't been given much of a chance here, but I just think ultimately he won't work.

Confidence and match rhythm is at an all time low for him, but the profile of player he is doesn't really fit. He's a 'cog in a system' midfielder; moulded in the Ajax style. We're a side of individual brilliance and off-the-cuff magic.

For all parties involved, I really do think the best thing would be for an immediate sale this summer. We're not going to fundamentally change the style of football we play to adorn his abilities (which I think aren't that great, anyway, but that's beside the point) -- nor is it worth waiting for him to adapt.

He's still a player who holds value in the market, so a sale this summer would make sense. Utilise those funds on either an actual defensive midfielder, ideally one who can play on the ball a bit from deep. Or that's further funds for the Sancho/Grealish (ball magnet creative winger) OR Haaland (dream no.9).

... Or we keep him for another season without a specialist role, and his value and gametime continues to dwindle and he ends up back at Ajax for a bargain price in summer 2022 and we reap little benefit. Sounds like us.

kttmz

5y

Keep him for a year so Ajax can buy him back for a couple of pennys

Grenouille

5y

I completely agree on Solskjaer's reluctance and inability to adequately rotate -- Maguire, Wan Bissaka, Rashford, and Fernandes are ran into the ground because Solskjaer is terrified of seeing out matches without them. It's a very big concern, and one of the bigger gripes I have with him as a manager.

The van De Beek stuff is interesting. I agree entirely he hasn't been given much of a chance here, but I just think ultimately he won't work.

Confidence and match rhythm is at an all time low for him, but the profile of player he is doesn't really fit. He's a 'cog in a system' midfielder; moulded in the Ajax style. We're a side of individual brilliance and off-the-cuff magic.

For all parties involved, I really do think the best thing would be for an immediate sale this summer. We're not going to fundamentally change the style of football we play to adorn his abilities (which I think aren't that great, anyway, but that's beside the point) -- nor is it worth waiting for him to adapt.

He's still a player who holds value in the market, so a sale this summer would make sense. Utilise those funds on either an actual defensive midfielder, ideally one who can play on the ball a bit from deep. Or that's further funds for the Sancho/Grealish (ball magnet creative winger) OR Haaland (dream no.9).

... Or we keep him for another season without a specialist role, and his value and gametime continues to dwindle and he ends up back at Ajax for a bargain price in summer 2022 and we reap little benefit. Sounds like us.

DwindlingSun

5y

I get what you're saying but I think its a backwards way of looking at it.

We shouldn't be aiming to remain this side of individual brilliance and off-the-cuff magic. We wanna become a proper team where every player is quality and dependable week in week out, where everybody is on the same wavelength in attack and defence.

We don't play good football. We produce a good 10-15 minute spell here and there, but we never really look convincing, we rarely move the ball with real pace and intent, we don't carve teams open all that much. We struggle against teams that set up to defend deep, and, even for all our supposed counter attack prowess, I don't really think we're all that great on the counter - misplaced final passes, wayward finishing, poor decision making.

Ajax played far better football than we've played in years during their champions league run. They played the way Ole always speaks about wanting to play. Pressing high up the pitch, fast tempo, hard work off the ball, incisive runs, quick forward passing. That is the style of play we should be moving towards. Not what we're watching currently, this isn't gonna get us trophies.

Better coaching and surrounding our current players with better ones is the way forward. Players like VDB - very smart, great technically, hard working - are always valuable, there's always room for them in any system. They make the players around them better, even if that doesn't mean producing headline grabbing Bruno level contributions.

Valenciaisthebest

5y

I agree but I would say AJAX is way ahead of us in developing players which has always been the case since the takeover by the glazers. Ole definitely wants to play a similar system which has been illustrated by his use of the 4-3-3 when he started which was successful until it wasn't due to the limitations of these players in the premier league. A positive is that Ole has signed some of the best younger talents in world football stealing them away from the likes of Madrid and City in order to work the club from the ground up of producing better football. The demands and talent of the premier league compared to something like the Eredevisie is much different and Van De Beeks runs have to be different. I think he has all the tools but like Ziyech he must be given time to adjust.

DwindlingSun

5y

What chances has VDB got? Mans been given less minutes in the league than Van Dijk managed to clock by October.

And how we gonna blame the board/scouts yet absolve Ole here. He's got a veto on transfers. Scouts recommend an abundant amount of players and the board did their job and payed up when asked to.

VDB was brought in because Bruno was knackered at the end of last season. Now this season we're s***ter than expected and Ole still doesn't understand the importance of rotation and doesn't have faith in the rest of the team when Bruno is benched.

It also doesn't exactly help when Ole doesn't seem to have a clue where he wants him playing. He's played him in CM, AM, LM. At least let the guy build some consistency and understanding of the team dynamic and style.

The first (of 2) league games that VDB started in was against Southampton back in November and he was great in that game. The vast majority of his other minutes coming in games where he's on to see out the game for 10-15 mins if that. Or in really weak starting 11s in cup games with a bunch of players shoehorned together who were already on the fringe and lacking sharpness - Lingard, Ighalo, Williams, Mata, Matic, Fosu-Mensah etc.

Obviously and rightly so his confidence and sharpness is in the toilet. Any player would need a solid string of games to build that back and show what they can do. He hasn't been given that, simple as. VDB aint just suddenly become a s*** player. He proved his quality at Ajax. There's a reason he was linked with every top team in Europe and had clocked as many minutes at Ajax as he did. You give the guy barely any minutes in a new team then what do you expect. Especially when our attack has been so poor this season in their movement, tempo and finishing. Complete different wavelength to what he is accustomed to.

Root

5y

Nevermind there’s always one

Marble

5y

You can @ me if you want,
I want VdB to succeed as much as anyone, but praising someone unjust so that we have something to blame on Ole is getting so dumb. Why should I have an agenda btw?

Root

5y

Marble, you can have whatever opinion you want. Just as long as you got a good cohesive validation to said opinion to debate with other people, then it’s all good.

But you saying “I doubt you watch United games” is a bit immature. And comes across as attention grabbing. I’m sure everyone here watches Man United. Even if we are working we try to find a way to watch.

Grenouille

5y

Eh, our inability to play good football is pretty overstated, and so is this whole Ajax’s Cruijffan [somewhat] elitism stuff. They had a great CL performance that one season - no denying, and they obviously play cute football in Holland - but a big part of that was having two of their best academy players shoot through at the same time in Frenkie and De Ligt. Beside the point, anyway, we aren’t Ajax. We won’t look anything like that under Ole.

We create 10.9 chances per game in the PL, only City (11.7) and Chelsea (11.3) create more. Luke Shaw leads the way for chances created by a defender, Fernandes leads the way for chances created in the entire league.

Our problem isn’t not playing cute triangles or not playing a 4-3-3; it’s a mixture of not having top quality defensive midfielders, and having strikers who can put the ball in the onion bag. Cavani, Greenwood, and Martial have 11 league goals between them this season, and have missed 20(!) big chances.

Are we perfect? Far from it. Could Solskjaer be improved upon? Relatively easily. But as a side I believe we are relatively comfortably the second best in the league, who have the propensity to play some good football. Once we have numbers come back from injury, I think we’ll solidify that position by the end of the season.

Now whether we can solidify that and move from being ‘second best in 2020/21’ to genuinely competing is another question entirely.

KingOfPop

5y

Of that 20 missed chances, how does it break down? Also not sure why Marcus has been excluded from those 3

Grenouille

5y

Chances missed: 20
Anthony Martial: 10
Edinson Cavani: 6
Mason Greenwood: 4

Marcus Rashford has missed 10 too. But the reason I kept him out of it is more because I was directly focussing on our no.9s - Cavani and Martial have played the vast majority of their games upfront, and when Greenwood isn’t RM, he seems to be preferred as the no.9 over Rashford.

Marble

5y

I’ll post one more thing before I’m off, so I have some ‘good cohesive arguments’:
Van De Beek G/A per minute:
1 assist every 1053 minutes
1 goal every 1053 minutes

kttmz

5y

There’s also a difference in club culture where academy players are given a proper chance. When players are trained with the clubs dna they are much easier to fit in. This connection is very underrated imo. Look at the Barca from 10 years ago (or what Koeman is doing rn), that was a similar situation. Ajax built a fortune on this strategy last years instead of buying big selling low like Woodward. And even now Ajax is buying players for 20mil (which is huge for the Eredivisie), but it’s mixed with experienced players and youth academy. I think United will go this way, otherwise the change in technical directors from last week would be for nothing.

Valenciaisthebest

5y

Yes this is why I push for Ole so hard because he’s the only manager since Fergie who has started to turn things around and at least attempt to go down this route so far. We have always been a club with core values and to get back to that Ajax and Barca are the standard.