Scroll down for tldr
First I’ll say that I really like the album a lot regardless of my critique. I still think Kendrick is arguably the greatest rapper of all time, but that doesn’t mean his social commentary always hits the mark, and that’s what I’m gonna focus on here. I don’t think he has some nefarious agenda or anything either, I believe he always had the best intentions, but had unfair expectations of what he could accomplish with the message in his art to achieve social change, which eventually led him down this path of a highly individualist COPE of his own perceived failure in bettering society.
There are some songs on the album where through deeply reflecting on his own personal experiences he actually did come to some great insights and points of social commentary, songs like Father Time, Mother I Sober and Auntie Diaries are great examples of that. Without explicitly naming those terms, he discusses things like patriarchy, colonialism, sexual violence etc. in a thoughtful and accessible way. But it’s when he zooms out of his own personal experiences and looks at SOCIETY from a distance and his own role in (not) bettering society where he gets lost in the ideological illusions of idealism, individualism and a great man theory of history. I promise I’m not tryna over intellectualize s*** and I will try to explain what I mean with as much clarity as I can.
After my first couple of listens of the album I realized Kendrick probably has one of the most interesting character arcs outlined in his discography. The shift from Section.80 to this album isn’t lost on anybody, including Kendrick himself. The change from “we gon be alright” to “I chose me I’m sorry” is a pretty dramatic shift, but it’s in my opinion an unnecessary shift that ultimately stems from how he misunderstood the problems that he addressed in his music throughout his career.
I think if you want to pinpoint where exactly this shift happened the most, there are two important moments, firstly the period in between TPAB and DAMN. and the 2020 BLM protests. Kendrick told us many times on this album that he is NOT our savior, but he had to convince himself of that before he told us that, in Mortal Man where he finishes the poem throughout TPAB, he said:
“A war that was based on apartheid and discrimination
Made me wanna go back to the city and tell the homies what I learned
The word was respect
Just because you wore a different gang color than mine's
Doesn't mean I can't respect you as a black man
Forgetting all the pain and hurt we caused each other in these streets
If I respect you, we unify and stop the enemy from killing us
But I don't know, I'm no mortal man
Maybe I'm just another nigga”
From his perceived failure he found out that he was not a savior and in fact just another nigga. That reality check took a lot of the hope out of him, and I do sympathize with it, but it was because of an unfounded expectation based on a false conception of how social change is achieved. Namely through the propagation of certain ideas, and that a positive message spreading to individuals could bring about a positive change in society, if only it was that simple…
This is what I mean with idealism. In reality it’s not the ideas of the people that need to be changed in order to prevent violence in impoverished communities, it’s the material conditions that need to change in order to take away the conditions that lead to that violence.
But Kendrick thought he could make a change by spreading his idea of unity, being confronted with that failure was hard for him to take, and I think that’s why DAMN. had such a depressing tone throughout the album, especially with songs like YAH, FEEL and LUST. He also started to find the responsibility he felt to change the world overwhelming, but he wasn’t quite abandoning the responsibility altogether. “I feel like the whole world want me to pray for em, but who the f*** praying for me?
” is still not quite the same as “I chose me I’m sorry
”
I think that was partly because of the 2020 BLM protests and how he got criticized for not doing enough, especially by Noname. That last verse on Mirror where he went “I chose me I’m sorry” in the hook was directed at her:
“'Cause all of it's toxic
Girl, I'm not relevant to givin' on profit
Personal gain off my pain, it's nonsense
Darlin', my demons is off the leash for a moshpit
Baby, I just had a baby, you know she need me
Workin' on myself, the counselin' is not easy
Don't you point a finger, just to point a finger
'Cause critical thinkin' is a deal-breaker
Faith in one man is a ship sinking
Do yourself a favor and get a mirror that mirror grievance
Then point it at me so the reflection can mirror freedom
She told me that she need me the most, I didn't believe her
She even called me names on the post, the world can see it
Jokes and gaslightin'
Mad at me 'cause she didn't get my vote, she say I'm triflin'
Disregardin' the way that I cope with my own vices
Maybe it's time to break it off
Run away from the culture to follow my heart”
I actually mostly agree with what he’s saying here because I think the way noname went at Kendrick was completely out of pocket and that it was based on a false idea of Kendrick being a “savior”. But he gotta realize that he himself played a role in that as well. I would have liked to see him reflect more on his own responsibility in that, instead of just pointing the finger at those who may have unfairly deemed him to be some kind of failure without addressing how that happened. This is the problem with how he conceived of social change by a misconception that great men throughout history are the ones who spur social change, which explains his idolization of 2pac, to whom he pretty obviously saw himself as the next great man with the task of changing society for the better, or in other words, as a savior.
The part that I take issue with is that he acts as if he had to choose between either being a savior, or just only being concerned with his own problems, as he said in Mirror: “Sorry I didn't save the world, my friend, I was too busy building mine again”. But here Kendrick presents us a false dichotomy, either be a savior, or just concern yourself with your own problems, since you cannot save the world anyway, there is a different option that Kendrick is omitting, you don’t have to choose between either extremes, but I think that’s because he was previously so invested in the other extreme. So I understand where he’s coming from, but I don’t think this is the right position to take, but who knows where his head will be at in a couple of years. I look forward to finding that out with his next album and until then I’ll be bumping Mr. Morale & The Big Steppers
TLDR: I can definitely sympathize with Kendrick’s feeling of disappointment in not achieving what he genuinely wanted to achieve with the message in his music, but it was ultimately based on his misconception of the problems that he wanted to solve because of his understanding of history mostly being determined by great men (or as he says, “saviors”) propagating ideas that changed material conditions. When confronted with his own inevitable failure as one of those great men, he instead went to the other extreme and distanced himself from being concerned with the world's problems altogether and embraced a highly individualistic mindset in just worrying about “building his own world” instead, but those are of course not the only choices.
Spot on brother. I agree with everything you said here
so is kendrick depressed because music isnt strong enough to make a change or the message?
sum to that extent
@Scratchin_Bandit
actual thoughts below;
I think from a detached standpoint, there's an interesting overlap here with the mythology of mainstream culture in general. I know you're coming at it from a more political angle, but I think there's another angle which I think is underexplored. Firstly, I don't usually like over-intellectualizing music or peoples' lives, but in regarsd to someone who's a celebrity making themselves a spectacle (inadvertently or otherwise), Kendrick has still put himself in a position to be looked at in this manner, at least in a comparative sense to others who's gone down the same path.
Arguably the core of western cultural mythos is the Hero's Journey, but it's rare that someone asks; what happens after the Hero's Journey? The Hero's Journey is often depicted as a cycle, but this because of the finite nature of depiction in art or media. In reality, when you extrapolate the Hero's Journey not from the art itself, but to the artist, you get a lot more interesting of a picture. Many artists go through a cycle in their music which alludes to the Hero's Journey - not just in music but any form of art. Eventually, it's after they meet their most lauded and praised albums that the real next stage of the Hero's Cycle - cynicism and loathing. In any great mythology, there's a reason the story always ends after the Return & Redemption; if someone "saved the world", would they not be responsible for then what the world has become after such? If a great hero has saved the world how can they feel anything but loathing for the inevitable imperfections of the world otherwise? Sometimes in a Hero's Journey, the journey is only about themselves, but the same thing applies - if you "save" yourself, would you not then feel responsible for what you've become down the line?
Kendrick's being wrapped up in idealism throughout the early part of his career I'm going to go out on a limb here - it's because he never go to see the end of Pac's Hero's Journey. He only saw maybe the first half. So the mythos of Pac will always be that he was destined to do great things had his life not been cut short. Contrast this with Kendrick's Christian beliefs and the importance placed on the individual within Christianity as well as the idea of attonement and such. Unlike someone like Pac however, whose mythos was continued largely toward the western equivalent of folklore and legend, Kendrick got his flowers while he was still here - he got to see what dropping an album everyone considered a culmination of idealism is, with songs like Alright which even began to be used at protests. Kendrick probably very quickly realized however following this, and following the sheer intensity of the amount of work and the level of talent, timing, luck, etc. that all went in the journey up to TPAB followed by the utterly absurd ebb and flow of social discourse in the years following - holy s*** this has done absolutely nothing of value besides satisfy people's need for entertainment. And let's look at this idea wthin the framing of like A Society of the Spectacle or a Baudrillard-type idea; it doesn't matter what the message was, or how artistic it was; the art would only ever be consumed as entertainment, and even the symbol within the culture will never truly evolve past the culture of which it has originated - it will never be "revolutionary" because of its origins. I contrast this with a similar idea - why the 60s failed to "really" change things beyond a further delve into "individualist" capitalism; did anyone think shows funded by Wallstreet Bankers & Investment Speculators (i.e. Woodstock) would ever truly be revolutionary, even if the artists believed they would be?
Now I'm going to say this from the outside, and from the perspective of how little Kendrick has involved himself in public situations - something which is obviously purposeful as it makes his art shine more. I think this genuinely broke him as he had trouble reconciling this with his idealistic view of what a person or art could achieve, but also with his own christian view of what individuals can do within the faith and the importance of such there. I think this is why the tone between TPAB and DAMN shifts so much - Kendrick starts dabbling with Israelite ideas and such, the idea that the reason his individualistic idealism isn't working is because it must be due to some greater force - like it must be a curse or something. But at the same time, Kendrick is obviously aware of the misgivings from TPAB - the idea that "okay well art didn't change s*** so I guess I may as well make it accessible". I've always felt TPAB is a hopeful album overall, but by contrast DAMN is more solemn and carries this idea of cosmic fate and things outside of the control of the individual.
But then, after DAMN, Kendrick really got to see the explosion of social discourse with stuff like Trump, COVID, BLM, etc. and I think him basically just going black out on all social was him being like "I can't take this s*** anymore". Because following that cycle, Kendrick's reflecting on himself and on how little this entity which his music has helped integrate into ("the culture") has really changed in any meaningful manner, and every piece of discourse is dictated more by arbitration and self-reference than anything actually important or meaningful. I think that's where this album comes in - he's gone through this whole cycle only to come to the conclusion not only does he literally not care anymore, but that he shouldn't have cared to begin with, because what he was trying to save or redeem was never redeemable or meaningful to begin with. I think that's why this album is also so all over the place emotionally and topically; at this point he's just writing for himself and doing what he wants and tracing his own thoughts and steps. He's saying "fuck it, consume my music if you want to. i don't care."
In the same way as I mentioned in the original release thread many other artists have done as well over their career - people like Mark Kozelek getting the point of cynicism with his fans, the media, and the world that his songs are just stream of conscious spoken word. It's not about making 15 minute epics meant to achieve a level of musical achievement anymore. It's just about them doing want they want, with the nagging cynicism of their history and the world around them. It doesn't matter necessarily if it's political, social, etc. - I think it's just clear that having gone through these journies, artists like Kendrick are tired. They know the critics have their opinions formed before they even put it out. They know what the fan reaction will be, and what "effect" it'll have on the world. So why double down on it? Instead, why not be self aware. It's a product. Listen to it if you want; I'm just doing what I want to at this point, feel free to join along.
ngl @Scratchin_Bandit i didnt mention this in my huge essay above but i also think this is why suddenly post-DAMN he's suddenly dodging social media but at the same time suddenly making industry moves. Prior to DAMN - even with TPAB - he was just kinda an artist and distanced himself from anything business wise really (except mainstream features but obv he needs to make money lol), prior he just deferred it to TDE. Since then, there's been a lot - starting pgLang, putting on Keem (no hate but obvious nepotism esp since hes ghostwriting for him), etc. - even like partnering with big companies like Amazon, Converse, etc.
I think it plays into this same cynicism. Like yeah, I'm putting out a product. I may as well play the industry game like anyone else - there's no revolution coming, so why am I not just doing what's best for me - I'm only handicapping myself by thinking I'm an artist and not a business (ironic since he mentions Hov on the album). Also just in general very literally echoed on the album with the "I choose me" stuff.
Jesus Christ nigga WHO CARES damn y’all wannabe Marxist need to f*** off that s*** got old a long time ago. Go start a chapel or something and preach this irl. We don’t give a f***. Your political view is not a damn personality trait
isn’t this the type of quality post we should be promoting even if it’s using a marxist’s lense the essence of the thread should be important and that’s creating a high quality post discussing how the life of the artist relates to his work even if he’s wrong or whatever it creates interesting discussion that we can learn from just reading.
honestly cookie seems like ur just being mad for the point of being mad now
Great thread @op I don't usually go through lenghty stuff like this but I knew it would be great coming from you.
Imo the way that I read this album and this might be me overintellectualising it but anyways here it is :
This album very much feels like the end of Kendrick's Cassandra arc. Cassandra was this greek figure that was supposedly cursed by Apollo allowing her to see the future but condemned to never being believed by anyone. Kendrick spent the length of TPAB and in some ways GKMC telling us that unity was the way moving forward. Yet, 2022, here we are and we can't even agree as a whole on taking a f***ing vaccine or not while still losing people to gang violence, stupid beefs... just like what he said on TPAB entered one ear and quickly left the other one.
I see this album not as some type of newly found "selfshiness" but as him giving up on his message (which might be worse in some ways). The "I'm not your saviour" very much resonated to me like a "I tried but y'all won't listen"
It’s depressing AF
ngl @Scratchin_Bandit i didnt mention this in my huge essay above but i also think this is why suddenly post-DAMN he's suddenly dodging social media but at the same time suddenly making industry moves. Prior to DAMN - even with TPAB - he was just kinda an artist and distanced himself from anything business wise really (except mainstream features but obv he needs to make money lol), prior he just deferred it to TDE. Since then, there's been a lot - starting pgLang, putting on Keem (no hate but obvious nepotism esp since hes ghostwriting for him), etc. - even like partnering with big companies like Amazon, Converse, etc.
I think it plays into this same cynicism. Like yeah, I'm putting out a product. I may as well play the industry game like anyone else - there's no revolution coming, so why am I not just doing what's best for me - I'm only handicapping myself by thinking I'm an artist and not a business (ironic since he mentions Hov on the album). Also just in general very literally echoed on the album with the "I choose me" stuff.
this is safer and better for him
wouldnt want to watch him lose it like kanye
cuz thats what happens when you force a change in world(in that way
this is safer and better for him
wouldnt want to watch him lose it like kanye
cuz thats what happens when you force a change in world(in that way
Yeah, I kinda don't blame him really either. I just say this as an observation though, it's not meant to be a biased conclusion from my end on the morality or my personal thoughts on it.
Kenny should start trying to learn real theory like Pac did if he wants to meaningfully carry on his legacy
Again, I think this album was him saying he doesn't want to do that. He just wants to be him and live for himself and his family.
@Scratchin_Bandit
actual thoughts below;
I think from a detached standpoint, there's an interesting overlap here with the mythology of mainstream culture in general. I know you're coming at it from a more political angle, but I think there's another angle which I think is underexplored. Firstly, I don't usually like over-intellectualizing music or peoples' lives, but in regarsd to someone who's a celebrity making themselves a spectacle (inadvertently or otherwise), Kendrick has still put himself in a position to be looked at in this manner, at least in a comparative sense to others who's gone down the same path.
Arguably the core of western cultural mythos is the Hero's Journey, but it's rare that someone asks; what happens after the Hero's Journey? The Hero's Journey is often depicted as a cycle, but this because of the finite nature of depiction in art or media. In reality, when you extrapolate the Hero's Journey not from the art itself, but to the artist, you get a lot more interesting of a picture. Many artists go through a cycle in their music which alludes to the Hero's Journey - not just in music but any form of art. Eventually, it's after they meet their most lauded and praised albums that the real next stage of the Hero's Cycle - cynicism and loathing. In any great mythology, there's a reason the story always ends after the Return & Redemption; if someone "saved the world", would they not be responsible for then what the world has become after such? If a great hero has saved the world how can they feel anything but loathing for the inevitable imperfections of the world otherwise? Sometimes in a Hero's Journey, the journey is only about themselves, but the same thing applies - if you "save" yourself, would you not then feel responsible for what you've become down the line?
Kendrick's being wrapped up in idealism throughout the early part of his career I'm going to go out on a limb here - it's because he never go to see the end of Pac's Hero's Journey. He only saw maybe the first half. So the mythos of Pac will always be that he was destined to do great things had his life not been cut short. Contrast this with Kendrick's Christian beliefs and the importance placed on the individual within Christianity as well as the idea of attonement and such. Unlike someone like Pac however, whose mythos was continued largely toward the western equivalent of folklore and legend, Kendrick got his flowers while he was still here - he got to see what dropping an album everyone considered a culmination of idealism is, with songs like Alright which even began to be used at protests. Kendrick probably very quickly realized however following this, and following the sheer intensity of the amount of work and the level of talent, timing, luck, etc. that all went in the journey up to TPAB followed by the utterly absurd ebb and flow of social discourse in the years following - holy s*** this has done absolutely nothing of value besides satisfy people's need for entertainment. And let's look at this idea wthin the framing of like A Society of the Spectacle or a Baudrillard-type idea; it doesn't matter what the message was, or how artistic it was; the art would only ever be consumed as entertainment, and even the symbol within the culture will never truly evolve past the culture of which it has originated - it will never be "revolutionary" because of its origins. I contrast this with a similar idea - why the 60s failed to "really" change things beyond a further delve into "individualist" capitalism; did anyone think shows funded by Wallstreet Bankers & Investment Speculators (i.e. Woodstock) would ever truly be revolutionary, even if the artists believed they would be?
Now I'm going to say this from the outside, and from the perspective of how little Kendrick has involved himself in public situations - something which is obviously purposeful as it makes his art shine more. I think this genuinely broke him as he had trouble reconciling this with his idealistic view of what a person or art could achieve, but also with his own christian view of what individuals can do within the faith and the importance of such there. I think this is why the tone between TPAB and DAMN shifts so much - Kendrick starts dabbling with Israelite ideas and such, the idea that the reason his individualistic idealism isn't working is because it must be due to some greater force - like it must be a curse or something. But at the same time, Kendrick is obviously aware of the misgivings from TPAB - the idea that "okay well art didn't change s*** so I guess I may as well make it accessible". I've always felt TPAB is a hopeful album overall, but by contrast DAMN is more solemn and carries this idea of cosmic fate and things outside of the control of the individual.
But then, after DAMN, Kendrick really got to see the explosion of social discourse with stuff like Trump, COVID, BLM, etc. and I think him basically just going black out on all social was him being like "I can't take this s*** anymore". Because following that cycle, Kendrick's reflecting on himself and on how little this entity which his music has helped integrate into ("the culture") has really changed in any meaningful manner, and every piece of discourse is dictated more by arbitration and self-reference than anything actually important or meaningful. I think that's where this album comes in - he's gone through this whole cycle only to come to the conclusion not only does he literally not care anymore, but that he shouldn't have cared to begin with, because what he was trying to save or redeem was never redeemable or meaningful to begin with. I think that's why this album is also so all over the place emotionally and topically; at this point he's just writing for himself and doing what he wants and tracing his own thoughts and steps. He's saying "fuck it, consume my music if you want to. i don't care."
In the same way as I mentioned in the original release thread many other artists have done as well over their career - people like Mark Kozelek getting the point of cynicism with his fans, the media, and the world that his songs are just stream of conscious spoken word. It's not about making 15 minute epics meant to achieve a level of musical achievement anymore. It's just about them doing want they want, with the nagging cynicism of their history and the world around them. It doesn't matter necessarily if it's political, social, etc. - I think it's just clear that having gone through these journies, artists like Kendrick are tired. They know the critics have their opinions formed before they even put it out. They know what the fan reaction will be, and what "effect" it'll have on the world. So why double down on it? Instead, why not be self aware. It's a product. Listen to it if you want; I'm just doing what I want to at this point, feel free to join along.
if Kendrick works through his deep family trauma, gains a greater understanding of the world and his reality, and then still chooses to be a hermit at the end of it I would understand the individualist talk more
but on this album it's like he's in the hospital with a broken leg and they're about to put stitches on, he can go for a walk later if it heals but for now he's got other priorities understandably
speaking raw and traumatic events out loud like this can be liberating but not ultimately always be the end of the trauma
The world is not like it was in pac's time
The knowledge is too accessible people dont even want it
People dont think there is a new knowledge that can move them. So I dont think no matter what you say its extremly hard to move people with just words. action is necessary and kendrick is just an artist . i dont think he should have any kind of regrets. he is just playing his role
Thread definitely inspiring me to take that first step and commit to reading it shouldn’t be a trivial as long as there’s convo in between feel like knowledge could be a tool for healing depending on perspective
Okay first off, youre throwing too many big words at me. Because I don't understand them, imma take it as disrespect. Watch your mouth @op
Thread definitely inspiring me to take that first step and commit to reading it shouldn’t be a trivial as long as there’s convo in between feel like knowledge could be a tool for healing depending on perspective
heads up fam lotta full stops itt
this is why people hate Kendrick fans lol
I mean they’re right
How many other times has there been mass uproar that a Rap album got snubbed for AOTY at the Grammys? We know there’s plenty of rappers that dropped something worthy of AOTY, but when else have the white masses felt that way?
Obligatory “Grammys don’t matter” but that’s besides the point.
@Scratchin_Bandit
actual thoughts below;
I think from a detached standpoint, there's an interesting overlap here with the mythology of mainstream culture in general. I know you're coming at it from a more political angle, but I think there's another angle which I think is underexplored. Firstly, I don't usually like over-intellectualizing music or peoples' lives, but in regarsd to someone who's a celebrity making themselves a spectacle (inadvertently or otherwise), Kendrick has still put himself in a position to be looked at in this manner, at least in a comparative sense to others who's gone down the same path.
Arguably the core of western cultural mythos is the Hero's Journey, but it's rare that someone asks; what happens after the Hero's Journey? The Hero's Journey is often depicted as a cycle, but this because of the finite nature of depiction in art or media. In reality, when you extrapolate the Hero's Journey not from the art itself, but to the artist, you get a lot more interesting of a picture. Many artists go through a cycle in their music which alludes to the Hero's Journey - not just in music but any form of art. Eventually, it's after they meet their most lauded and praised albums that the real next stage of the Hero's Cycle - cynicism and loathing. In any great mythology, there's a reason the story always ends after the Return & Redemption; if someone "saved the world", would they not be responsible for then what the world has become after such? If a great hero has saved the world how can they feel anything but loathing for the inevitable imperfections of the world otherwise? Sometimes in a Hero's Journey, the journey is only about themselves, but the same thing applies - if you "save" yourself, would you not then feel responsible for what you've become down the line?
Kendrick's being wrapped up in idealism throughout the early part of his career I'm going to go out on a limb here - it's because he never go to see the end of Pac's Hero's Journey. He only saw maybe the first half. So the mythos of Pac will always be that he was destined to do great things had his life not been cut short. Contrast this with Kendrick's Christian beliefs and the importance placed on the individual within Christianity as well as the idea of attonement and such. Unlike someone like Pac however, whose mythos was continued largely toward the western equivalent of folklore and legend, Kendrick got his flowers while he was still here - he got to see what dropping an album everyone considered a culmination of idealism is, with songs like Alright which even began to be used at protests. Kendrick probably very quickly realized however following this, and following the sheer intensity of the amount of work and the level of talent, timing, luck, etc. that all went in the journey up to TPAB followed by the utterly absurd ebb and flow of social discourse in the years following - holy s*** this has done absolutely nothing of value besides satisfy people's need for entertainment. And let's look at this idea wthin the framing of like A Society of the Spectacle or a Baudrillard-type idea; it doesn't matter what the message was, or how artistic it was; the art would only ever be consumed as entertainment, and even the symbol within the culture will never truly evolve past the culture of which it has originated - it will never be "revolutionary" because of its origins. I contrast this with a similar idea - why the 60s failed to "really" change things beyond a further delve into "individualist" capitalism; did anyone think shows funded by Wallstreet Bankers & Investment Speculators (i.e. Woodstock) would ever truly be revolutionary, even if the artists believed they would be?
Now I'm going to say this from the outside, and from the perspective of how little Kendrick has involved himself in public situations - something which is obviously purposeful as it makes his art shine more. I think this genuinely broke him as he had trouble reconciling this with his idealistic view of what a person or art could achieve, but also with his own christian view of what individuals can do within the faith and the importance of such there. I think this is why the tone between TPAB and DAMN shifts so much - Kendrick starts dabbling with Israelite ideas and such, the idea that the reason his individualistic idealism isn't working is because it must be due to some greater force - like it must be a curse or something. But at the same time, Kendrick is obviously aware of the misgivings from TPAB - the idea that "okay well art didn't change s*** so I guess I may as well make it accessible". I've always felt TPAB is a hopeful album overall, but by contrast DAMN is more solemn and carries this idea of cosmic fate and things outside of the control of the individual.
But then, after DAMN, Kendrick really got to see the explosion of social discourse with stuff like Trump, COVID, BLM, etc. and I think him basically just going black out on all social was him being like "I can't take this s*** anymore". Because following that cycle, Kendrick's reflecting on himself and on how little this entity which his music has helped integrate into ("the culture") has really changed in any meaningful manner, and every piece of discourse is dictated more by arbitration and self-reference than anything actually important or meaningful. I think that's where this album comes in - he's gone through this whole cycle only to come to the conclusion not only does he literally not care anymore, but that he shouldn't have cared to begin with, because what he was trying to save or redeem was never redeemable or meaningful to begin with. I think that's why this album is also so all over the place emotionally and topically; at this point he's just writing for himself and doing what he wants and tracing his own thoughts and steps. He's saying "fuck it, consume my music if you want to. i don't care."
In the same way as I mentioned in the original release thread many other artists have done as well over their career - people like Mark Kozelek getting the point of cynicism with his fans, the media, and the world that his songs are just stream of conscious spoken word. It's not about making 15 minute epics meant to achieve a level of musical achievement anymore. It's just about them doing want they want, with the nagging cynicism of their history and the world around them. It doesn't matter necessarily if it's political, social, etc. - I think it's just clear that having gone through these journies, artists like Kendrick are tired. They know the critics have their opinions formed before they even put it out. They know what the fan reaction will be, and what "effect" it'll have on the world. So why double down on it? Instead, why not be self aware. It's a product. Listen to it if you want; I'm just doing what I want to at this point, feel free to join along.
wow a rare educated post in the music sxn
Thread definitely inspiring me to take that first step and commit to reading it shouldn’t be a trivial as long as there’s convo in between feel like knowledge could be a tool for healing depending on perspective
There’s good convo itt and I highly recommend into looking at some actual writing as well afterwards
Idk what I’d recommend on these topics but @op and @krishna_bound are bound to have an idea
First thing I wanna say is that this applies to Cole as well and I think it's very interesting to see how kendrick and Cole reacted in different ways.
Secondly, none of these rappers are geniuses like people like to say online and they definitely don't have the answers to any social dilemmas that plagued us. The expectation that their contribution or input on figuring it out is completely wrong. None of these niggas have degrees they are just regular niggas.
At the same time I can't necessarily all the way blame people for expecting them to have the answers to s*** because 1. it's what they brought up thinking they should expect, ex. 2pac and 2. sometimes they oresent themselves to have the answers. But the expectation is wrong nonetheless.
In cases like Noname I question if that was from a place of genuinely wondering why our biggest rap stars were silent on ongoing issues (they weren't) or if it was simply for attention. She took back every single thing she said and I'm pretty sure she deleted everything. A lot of people (this site mainly) took it as a opportunity to join in and rail on artists they already didn't like for a problem that they could do next to nothing to even alleviate at the time.
Even though at times throughout his career Kendrick has presented himself as wanting to be a savior I personally think that came from his drive of wanting to be this generations "Pac". I don't think he fully knew what the weight of becoming an entire people's voice was and it overwhelmed him for sure. I think that hit right after TPAB like you said.
My point is basically I think it's the people's job to not get so caught up in what these artists are saying.They should instead present their attention to community leaders, local politicians and actual activists. Musicians cannot be our leaders
isn’t this the type of quality post we should be promoting even if it’s using a marxist’s lense the essence of the thread should be important and that’s creating a high quality post discussing how the life of the artist relates to his work even if he’s wrong or whatever it creates interesting discussion that we can learn from just reading.
honestly cookie seems like ur just being mad for the point of being mad now
^thats his gimmick bro lol
ngl @Scratchin_Bandit i didnt mention this in my huge essay above but i also think this is why suddenly post-DAMN he's suddenly dodging social media but at the same time suddenly making industry moves. Prior to DAMN - even with TPAB - he was just kinda an artist and distanced himself from anything business wise really (except mainstream features but obv he needs to make money lol), prior he just deferred it to TDE. Since then, there's been a lot - starting pgLang, putting on Keem (no hate but obvious nepotism esp since hes ghostwriting for him), etc. - even like partnering with big companies like Amazon, Converse, etc.
I think it plays into this same cynicism. Like yeah, I'm putting out a product. I may as well play the industry game like anyone else - there's no revolution coming, so why am I not just doing what's best for me - I'm only handicapping myself by thinking I'm an artist and not a business (ironic since he mentions Hov on the album). Also just in general very literally echoed on the album with the "I choose me" stuff.
True.. him choosing to start his own label with pgLang and leaving TDE is probably the best real life example of his new mentality, havent seen TDE artists talk about this as much, prolly some tension there
I just know they're listening to the hook of Mirror absolutely seething
It’s depressing AF
In some ways it is in some ways it isn't.
I always thought that some rap fans were insanely dumb to see rap artists as some type of messiahs. Now that Kendrick loudly admitted that he was NOT that guy maybe a portion of his fans even a small one is going to start searching for other ways to have an impact on society since their fav is telling them that music, at least in 2022, is not that place anymore.
One reaction I'm weirdly interested in for example is Kyrie's one. I'm a huge Kyrie fan but I know that he was probably hurt listening to that bar against him even though he laughed it all off saying that the song was great.
Kendrick was actually saying through him that some of his fans preaching Kendrick for being this kind of unity catalyst are the first one to divide society as soon as they can. I know that Kyrie has his reasons for not taking the vaccine and I know that you can't disconnect American history from his decision but I know that deep down that bar must've felt like a gut punch and maybe a wake up call ? Who knows
^thats his gimmick bro lol
i don’t think so i had amazing interactions with cookies before, and seen many quality posts from cookies