krishna bound

4y

@Scratchin_Bandit

actual thoughts below;

I think from a detached standpoint, there's an interesting overlap here with the mythology of mainstream culture in general. I know you're coming at it from a more political angle, but I think there's another angle which I think is underexplored. Firstly, I don't usually like over-intellectualizing music or peoples' lives, but in regarsd to someone who's a celebrity making themselves a spectacle (inadvertently or otherwise), Kendrick has still put himself in a position to be looked at in this manner, at least in a comparative sense to others who's gone down the same path.

Arguably the core of western cultural mythos is the Hero's Journey, but it's rare that someone asks; what happens after the Hero's Journey? The Hero's Journey is often depicted as a cycle, but this because of the finite nature of depiction in art or media. In reality, when you extrapolate the Hero's Journey not from the art itself, but to the artist, you get a lot more interesting of a picture. Many artists go through a cycle in their music which alludes to the Hero's Journey - not just in music but any form of art. Eventually, it's after they meet their most lauded and praised albums that the real next stage of the Hero's Cycle - cynicism and loathing. In any great mythology, there's a reason the story always ends after the Return & Redemption; if someone "saved the world", would they not be responsible for then what the world has become after such? If a great hero has saved the world how can they feel anything but loathing for the inevitable imperfections of the world otherwise? Sometimes in a Hero's Journey, the journey is only about themselves, but the same thing applies - if you "save" yourself, would you not then feel responsible for what you've become down the line?

Kendrick's being wrapped up in idealism throughout the early part of his career I'm going to go out on a limb here - it's because he never go to see the end of Pac's Hero's Journey. He only saw maybe the first half. So the mythos of Pac will always be that he was destined to do great things had his life not been cut short. Contrast this with Kendrick's Christian beliefs and the importance placed on the individual within Christianity as well as the idea of attonement and such. Unlike someone like Pac however, whose mythos was continued largely toward the western equivalent of folklore and legend, Kendrick got his flowers while he was still here - he got to see what dropping an album everyone considered a culmination of idealism is, with songs like Alright which even began to be used at protests. Kendrick probably very quickly realized however following this, and following the sheer intensity of the amount of work and the level of talent, timing, luck, etc. that all went in the journey up to TPAB followed by the utterly absurd ebb and flow of social discourse in the years following - holy s*** this has done absolutely nothing of value besides satisfy people's need for entertainment. And let's look at this idea wthin the framing of like A Society of the Spectacle or a Baudrillard-type idea; it doesn't matter what the message was, or how artistic it was; the art would only ever be consumed as entertainment, and even the symbol within the culture will never truly evolve past the culture of which it has originated - it will never be "revolutionary" because of its origins. I contrast this with a similar idea - why the 60s failed to "really" change things beyond a further delve into "individualist" capitalism; did anyone think shows funded by Wallstreet Bankers & Investment Speculators (i.e. Woodstock) would ever truly be revolutionary, even if the artists believed they would be?

Now I'm going to say this from the outside, and from the perspective of how little Kendrick has involved himself in public situations - something which is obviously purposeful as it makes his art shine more. I think this genuinely broke him as he had trouble reconciling this with his idealistic view of what a person or art could achieve, but also with his own christian view of what individuals can do within the faith and the importance of such there. I think this is why the tone between TPAB and DAMN shifts so much - Kendrick starts dabbling with Israelite ideas and such, the idea that the reason his individualistic idealism isn't working is because it must be due to some greater force - like it must be a curse or something. But at the same time, Kendrick is obviously aware of the misgivings from TPAB - the idea that "okay well art didn't change s*** so I guess I may as well make it accessible". I've always felt TPAB is a hopeful album overall, but by contrast DAMN is more solemn and carries this idea of cosmic fate and things outside of the control of the individual.

But then, after DAMN, Kendrick really got to see the explosion of social discourse with stuff like Trump, COVID, BLM, etc. and I think him basically just going black out on all social was him being like "I can't take this s*** anymore". Because following that cycle, Kendrick's reflecting on himself and on how little this entity which his music has helped integrate into ("the culture") has really changed in any meaningful manner, and every piece of discourse is dictated more by arbitration and self-reference than anything actually important or meaningful. I think that's where this album comes in - he's gone through this whole cycle only to come to the conclusion not only does he literally not care anymore, but that he shouldn't have cared to begin with, because what he was trying to save or redeem was never redeemable or meaningful to begin with. I think that's why this album is also so all over the place emotionally and topically; at this point he's just writing for himself and doing what he wants and tracing his own thoughts and steps. He's saying "fuck it, consume my music if you want to. i don't care."

In the same way as I mentioned in the original release thread many other artists have done as well over their career - people like Mark Kozelek getting the point of cynicism with his fans, the media, and the world that his songs are just stream of conscious spoken word. It's not about making 15 minute epics meant to achieve a level of musical achievement anymore. It's just about them doing want they want, with the nagging cynicism of their history and the world around them. It doesn't matter necessarily if it's political, social, etc. - I think it's just clear that having gone through these journies, artists like Kendrick are tired. They know the critics have their opinions formed before they even put it out. They know what the fan reaction will be, and what "effect" it'll have on the world. So why double down on it? Instead, why not be self aware. It's a product. Listen to it if you want; I'm just doing what I want to at this point, feel free to join along.

insertcoolnamehere

4y

I guess the ego hurt now
It's time to go to work, wow, look at him go
He really 'bout to write about me when the world is in smokes?

shoutout to climate change this s*** even more valid now.

yesac

4y

who was this about?

Steak

4y

Okay first off, youre throwing too many big words at me. Because I don't understand them, imma take it as disrespect. Watch your mouth @op

imShy

4y

bro I’m a 25 yo black male I been listening to rap since I could understand words you sound stupid

krishna bound

4y

@Scratchin_Bandit

actual thoughts below;

I think from a detached standpoint, there's an interesting overlap here with the mythology of mainstream culture in general. I know you're coming at it from a more political angle, but I think there's another angle which I think is underexplored. Firstly, I don't usually like over-intellectualizing music or peoples' lives, but in regarsd to someone who's a celebrity making themselves a spectacle (inadvertently or otherwise), Kendrick has still put himself in a position to be looked at in this manner, at least in a comparative sense to others who's gone down the same path.

Arguably the core of western cultural mythos is the Hero's Journey, but it's rare that someone asks; what happens after the Hero's Journey? The Hero's Journey is often depicted as a cycle, but this because of the finite nature of depiction in art or media. In reality, when you extrapolate the Hero's Journey not from the art itself, but to the artist, you get a lot more interesting of a picture. Many artists go through a cycle in their music which alludes to the Hero's Journey - not just in music but any form of art. Eventually, it's after they meet their most lauded and praised albums that the real next stage of the Hero's Cycle - cynicism and loathing. In any great mythology, there's a reason the story always ends after the Return & Redemption; if someone "saved the world", would they not be responsible for then what the world has become after such? If a great hero has saved the world how can they feel anything but loathing for the inevitable imperfections of the world otherwise? Sometimes in a Hero's Journey, the journey is only about themselves, but the same thing applies - if you "save" yourself, would you not then feel responsible for what you've become down the line?

Kendrick's being wrapped up in idealism throughout the early part of his career I'm going to go out on a limb here - it's because he never go to see the end of Pac's Hero's Journey. He only saw maybe the first half. So the mythos of Pac will always be that he was destined to do great things had his life not been cut short. Contrast this with Kendrick's Christian beliefs and the importance placed on the individual within Christianity as well as the idea of attonement and such. Unlike someone like Pac however, whose mythos was continued largely toward the western equivalent of folklore and legend, Kendrick got his flowers while he was still here - he got to see what dropping an album everyone considered a culmination of idealism is, with songs like Alright which even began to be used at protests. Kendrick probably very quickly realized however following this, and following the sheer intensity of the amount of work and the level of talent, timing, luck, etc. that all went in the journey up to TPAB followed by the utterly absurd ebb and flow of social discourse in the years following - holy s*** this has done absolutely nothing of value besides satisfy people's need for entertainment. And let's look at this idea wthin the framing of like A Society of the Spectacle or a Baudrillard-type idea; it doesn't matter what the message was, or how artistic it was; the art would only ever be consumed as entertainment, and even the symbol within the culture will never truly evolve past the culture of which it has originated - it will never be "revolutionary" because of its origins. I contrast this with a similar idea - why the 60s failed to "really" change things beyond a further delve into "individualist" capitalism; did anyone think shows funded by Wallstreet Bankers & Investment Speculators (i.e. Woodstock) would ever truly be revolutionary, even if the artists believed they would be?

Now I'm going to say this from the outside, and from the perspective of how little Kendrick has involved himself in public situations - something which is obviously purposeful as it makes his art shine more. I think this genuinely broke him as he had trouble reconciling this with his idealistic view of what a person or art could achieve, but also with his own christian view of what individuals can do within the faith and the importance of such there. I think this is why the tone between TPAB and DAMN shifts so much - Kendrick starts dabbling with Israelite ideas and such, the idea that the reason his individualistic idealism isn't working is because it must be due to some greater force - like it must be a curse or something. But at the same time, Kendrick is obviously aware of the misgivings from TPAB - the idea that "okay well art didn't change s*** so I guess I may as well make it accessible". I've always felt TPAB is a hopeful album overall, but by contrast DAMN is more solemn and carries this idea of cosmic fate and things outside of the control of the individual.

But then, after DAMN, Kendrick really got to see the explosion of social discourse with stuff like Trump, COVID, BLM, etc. and I think him basically just going black out on all social was him being like "I can't take this s*** anymore". Because following that cycle, Kendrick's reflecting on himself and on how little this entity which his music has helped integrate into ("the culture") has really changed in any meaningful manner, and every piece of discourse is dictated more by arbitration and self-reference than anything actually important or meaningful. I think that's where this album comes in - he's gone through this whole cycle only to come to the conclusion not only does he literally not care anymore, but that he shouldn't have cared to begin with, because what he was trying to save or redeem was never redeemable or meaningful to begin with. I think that's why this album is also so all over the place emotionally and topically; at this point he's just writing for himself and doing what he wants and tracing his own thoughts and steps. He's saying "fuck it, consume my music if you want to. i don't care."

In the same way as I mentioned in the original release thread many other artists have done as well over their career - people like Mark Kozelek getting the point of cynicism with his fans, the media, and the world that his songs are just stream of conscious spoken word. It's not about making 15 minute epics meant to achieve a level of musical achievement anymore. It's just about them doing want they want, with the nagging cynicism of their history and the world around them. It doesn't matter necessarily if it's political, social, etc. - I think it's just clear that having gone through these journies, artists like Kendrick are tired. They know the critics have their opinions formed before they even put it out. They know what the fan reaction will be, and what "effect" it'll have on the world. So why double down on it? Instead, why not be self aware. It's a product. Listen to it if you want; I'm just doing what I want to at this point, feel free to join along.

Steak

4y

Okay first off, youre throwing too many big words at me. Because I don't understand them, imma take it as disrespect. Watch your mouth @op

Womanpuncher69

4y

great thread @op

kiddash3r

4y

This is legit one of the best posts on this forum

Scratchin Mamba

4y

Great poster in general my politricks sxn fellas know

Scratchin Mamba

4y

Great poster in general my politricks sxn fellas know

krishna bound

4y

@Scratchin_Bandit

actual thoughts below;

I think from a detached standpoint, there's an interesting overlap here with the mythology of mainstream culture in general. I know you're coming at it from a more political angle, but I think there's another angle which I think is underexplored. Firstly, I don't usually like over-intellectualizing music or peoples' lives, but in regarsd to someone who's a celebrity making themselves a spectacle (inadvertently or otherwise), Kendrick has still put himself in a position to be looked at in this manner, at least in a comparative sense to others who's gone down the same path.

Arguably the core of western cultural mythos is the Hero's Journey, but it's rare that someone asks; what happens after the Hero's Journey? The Hero's Journey is often depicted as a cycle, but this because of the finite nature of depiction in art or media. In reality, when you extrapolate the Hero's Journey not from the art itself, but to the artist, you get a lot more interesting of a picture. Many artists go through a cycle in their music which alludes to the Hero's Journey - not just in music but any form of art. Eventually, it's after they meet their most lauded and praised albums that the real next stage of the Hero's Cycle - cynicism and loathing. In any great mythology, there's a reason the story always ends after the Return & Redemption; if someone "saved the world", would they not be responsible for then what the world has become after such? If a great hero has saved the world how can they feel anything but loathing for the inevitable imperfections of the world otherwise? Sometimes in a Hero's Journey, the journey is only about themselves, but the same thing applies - if you "save" yourself, would you not then feel responsible for what you've become down the line?

Kendrick's being wrapped up in idealism throughout the early part of his career I'm going to go out on a limb here - it's because he never go to see the end of Pac's Hero's Journey. He only saw maybe the first half. So the mythos of Pac will always be that he was destined to do great things had his life not been cut short. Contrast this with Kendrick's Christian beliefs and the importance placed on the individual within Christianity as well as the idea of attonement and such. Unlike someone like Pac however, whose mythos was continued largely toward the western equivalent of folklore and legend, Kendrick got his flowers while he was still here - he got to see what dropping an album everyone considered a culmination of idealism is, with songs like Alright which even began to be used at protests. Kendrick probably very quickly realized however following this, and following the sheer intensity of the amount of work and the level of talent, timing, luck, etc. that all went in the journey up to TPAB followed by the utterly absurd ebb and flow of social discourse in the years following - holy s*** this has done absolutely nothing of value besides satisfy people's need for entertainment. And let's look at this idea wthin the framing of like A Society of the Spectacle or a Baudrillard-type idea; it doesn't matter what the message was, or how artistic it was; the art would only ever be consumed as entertainment, and even the symbol within the culture will never truly evolve past the culture of which it has originated - it will never be "revolutionary" because of its origins. I contrast this with a similar idea - why the 60s failed to "really" change things beyond a further delve into "individualist" capitalism; did anyone think shows funded by Wallstreet Bankers & Investment Speculators (i.e. Woodstock) would ever truly be revolutionary, even if the artists believed they would be?

Now I'm going to say this from the outside, and from the perspective of how little Kendrick has involved himself in public situations - something which is obviously purposeful as it makes his art shine more. I think this genuinely broke him as he had trouble reconciling this with his idealistic view of what a person or art could achieve, but also with his own christian view of what individuals can do within the faith and the importance of such there. I think this is why the tone between TPAB and DAMN shifts so much - Kendrick starts dabbling with Israelite ideas and such, the idea that the reason his individualistic idealism isn't working is because it must be due to some greater force - like it must be a curse or something. But at the same time, Kendrick is obviously aware of the misgivings from TPAB - the idea that "okay well art didn't change s*** so I guess I may as well make it accessible". I've always felt TPAB is a hopeful album overall, but by contrast DAMN is more solemn and carries this idea of cosmic fate and things outside of the control of the individual.

But then, after DAMN, Kendrick really got to see the explosion of social discourse with stuff like Trump, COVID, BLM, etc. and I think him basically just going black out on all social was him being like "I can't take this s*** anymore". Because following that cycle, Kendrick's reflecting on himself and on how little this entity which his music has helped integrate into ("the culture") has really changed in any meaningful manner, and every piece of discourse is dictated more by arbitration and self-reference than anything actually important or meaningful. I think that's where this album comes in - he's gone through this whole cycle only to come to the conclusion not only does he literally not care anymore, but that he shouldn't have cared to begin with, because what he was trying to save or redeem was never redeemable or meaningful to begin with. I think that's why this album is also so all over the place emotionally and topically; at this point he's just writing for himself and doing what he wants and tracing his own thoughts and steps. He's saying "fuck it, consume my music if you want to. i don't care."

In the same way as I mentioned in the original release thread many other artists have done as well over their career - people like Mark Kozelek getting the point of cynicism with his fans, the media, and the world that his songs are just stream of conscious spoken word. It's not about making 15 minute epics meant to achieve a level of musical achievement anymore. It's just about them doing want they want, with the nagging cynicism of their history and the world around them. It doesn't matter necessarily if it's political, social, etc. - I think it's just clear that having gone through these journies, artists like Kendrick are tired. They know the critics have their opinions formed before they even put it out. They know what the fan reaction will be, and what "effect" it'll have on the world. So why double down on it? Instead, why not be self aware. It's a product. Listen to it if you want; I'm just doing what I want to at this point, feel free to join along.

Ooo

4y

Jesus Christ nigga WHO CARES damn y’all wannabe Marxist need to f*** off that s*** got old a long time ago. Go start a chapel or something and preach this irl. We don’t give a f***. Your political view is not a damn personality trait

insertcoolnamehere

4y

"TPAB because of its worldwide success made white people know that rap is more than just blah blah blah"

is a wild sentence no matter how you slice it and dice it big fella

insertcoolnamehere

4y

"TPAB because of its worldwide success made white people know that rap is more than just blah blah blah"

is a wild sentence no matter how you slice it and dice it big fella

insertcoolnamehere

4y

song 33, noname reply to cole

imShy

4y

I disagree, that’s just fact

while people don’t listen to deep cut rap music bro. they listen to what’s on the radio and tops the chart wtf do you hear on the radio that makes you think rap is anything redeeming?

this the argument people have about why the only music that sells from back women is if they’re glorifying s***cause that’s the only thing that charts (generally)

things have changed in the last two decades rap got big watered down

whippet volverse

4y

does that invalidate her message? Kendrick talks on one song on the album about how the food we eat is killing people but still got a bag from Pepsi for doing the Super Bowl. in a way that itself is selling out, but we can still appreciate his thoughts
not sure how she sold out though admittedly I don't know a lot about her so maybe you can let me know

RX Diggler

4y

It’s factual tho tpab is a top 10 hip hip oat there aren’t many albums made like that especially as of late but white ppl don’t gaf how it’s done they were will always be that stigma pertained to rappers/hip hop culture