For all of you who imagine that these would be far bigger institutions that can't be managed, financed and would let people out in the world who kill others, two things for you all.

• The prison population is massively bloated by low d*** offences. This is actually the largest group of prisoners with robberies in a distant second. Now some crimes like rape and pedophilia are shown to be underreported by data. Regardless the situation is that we are far over-recoursing what would be a just criminal system with only a needed increase in educated workers to maintain such a facility. The govt could easily do this even with the unemployment of the last 4 years and much more so with 3% tax on the 400 richest americans

• People who manage our institutions do not all of the sudden become absolutely moronic when they are managing rehabilitation as oppose to prison. Rehabilitation does not have to "cookies and fun" for serial killers as a lot of you seem to have imagined. For some of these rare scenarios it may be better for their own good to spend their lives in a rehabilitative facility that does a little more than throw them to borderline slave labor where they will be moved further from sanity.

I'm not gonna iron every single detail you get the idea and are not stupid enough to think that because some tiny detail doesn't match up that humans are incapable of this.

Ok so then there's a position you're essentially supporting that you haven't stated or don't realize then.... I'll tell you what I mean, but I'll make some distinctions first what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about murder... No accidents.. No involuntary manslaughter... I'm talking about someone intentionally killing another person... That victim is gone and won't get another chance or another breathe.. They have no freedom to do anything... So there's already a strong argument they don't even deserve that chance having robbed that from another forever and thus should be separated from society, but let's entertain that they do because some may be rehabilitated or something.

Let's separate the two cases...

The person that makes the f***ed up decision to kill someone first... Yes I'm also not talking about one therapist or psychiatrist either... We can say multiple.. You agree multiple people in other areas can be fallible too I'd assume... Multiple cops, multiple judges, multiple prosecutors, etc... If you agree that they can be fallible, then we can agree that there will likely be some cases where this happens... A convicted murderer is released and makes the bad decision to murder again... I'll even concede without evidence that it may be a smaller percentage of cases where this happens, but you must admit on sheer probability that there will be some instances where this happens.

As far as the cases of people who have something wrong with their 🧠 that doesn't allow them to function in society without being a danger to others of course we should keep them separated from society, but even diagnosing that may not be something we can do definitively and so there may be cases where some of them get let out and murder again... How ever small a percentage is too much in my position.

So you're taking the position that you want murderers to get a second chance to be free or redemption at the expense of some people getting killed by them again to some degree... If there's just one instance of this... That's one too many in my estimation...

I said leave

This man continues to be an idiot you can tell hes some privileged white kid from vermont

I will 100% get to these longer responses when I can

So families who have had a love one murdered or raped should just get over it in your opinion? No closure at at all?

OP is an idiot

the prison system is f***ed i agree but viewing criminal justice as merely a rehabilitation process is wrong.

punishment should absolutely exist for more severe crimes, many of which are committed with full knowledge of the severity. this also takes into account the safety of the general public.

Agree with OP.

Tons of people reacting are so used to thinking in the classical concept of prisons that their mind is not opened to ideas like this... Self-imprisonment of the mental.

What is the gain of sole punishment? I’m talking punishment for the only sake of punishing? What is the gain?

btw expect vigilante justice to skyrocket if such a system is implemented. people aren't going to take kindly to their children's murderers being let back on to the streets because they managed to fool a psychologist or too

No. Dont see where I said thatd be the case

serves as a deterrent to (1) the individual who committed the crime and discourages them from committing future crimes and to (2) the general public

it seems a bit draconian to praise the idea of punishment, i know but there's a reason these systems exist.

Punishment has proven to not be an effective deterrent

All missing the point that other steps will also be used to reduce crime

for repeat offenders? i can actually see that. but you have to understand that the idea of crime and punishment influences the general public (which includes people who have yet to commit any crime) and acts to discourage them from committing any anti-social acts

it's basic behavioral psychology and pretty much ingrained in our brains.

I dont think this is true. I think most ppl don't commit crimes because they simply have no desire to. Not because they're afraid of punishment

i guess it's a matter of opinion to some extent but there are decades of psychological research and legal opinions backing the idea up.

again i'm not saying the criminal justice system is perfect as is (the private prison system being an example) but you can't really reach a resolution by "going soft" and removing the punitive element entirely

I'd need to see this research

just look up bf skinner or anything related to behavioral psychology

and obviously this has existed in the form of laws in society dating back to hammurabi's code

I agree that it works great as a discouragement. However, I am under the assumption that we will remain unable to reach the next levels of social prosperity, as long as the foundation of a state is built upon systems of punishment and similar manifestations of negativity. It works great as a discouragement, but I think it just suppresses the actions of individuals while the hatred remains. It conserves the seedbed of negativity. I don’t believe we are able to live in an all-positive society though, I wish. It’s just that I think that we could progress by reforming prisons and focussing on controlled rehabilitation, rather than punishment for the sole sake of punishment. It’s fighting fire with fire.

But you don't think any form of punishment should be issued for those crimes? You don't think the general population would have an issue with that?