Elric

3y

did you actually read that The Dead influenced Whipping Post

rvi

3y

not specifically but i think it's very safe to say they did influence the approach in some way. they were fans and joined each other to jam on stage. genesis of Mountain Jam also has some shared history

"I love the Dead. As far as Jerry Garcia, Jerry Garcia could walk on water. He could do anything any man could ever do. He's a prince." --Duane Allman

found this ridiculously thorough article on the relationship between the two http://deadessays.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-dead-and-allmans.html

"In a 1973 interview, Garcia said that some of the Allmans had seen the Dead play the Miami Pop Festival in December ’68: “Dickey and the guys had flashed on our music when we played at a festival in Florida about five or six years ago. We really inspired them and they’ve patterned a lot of their trip after us.”
I've never seen any of the Allmans mention this, though; probably Garcia heard it directly from Duane or D***ey Betts."

"Keyboardist Reese Wynans said, “Berry was very dedicated to jamming and deeply into the Dead and the Airplane and these psychedelic approaches and always playing that music for us – and it was pretty exotic music to our ears, because there were no similar bands in the area.” (6)

Betts recalled, “Duane and Gregg had a real purist blues thing together, but Oakley and I in our band would take a standard blues and rearrange it…a psychedelic approach to the blues… We loved the blues, but we wanted to play in a rock style, like what Cream and Hendrix were doing. Jefferson Airplane was also a big influence on us; Phil Lesh and Jack Casady were Oakley’s favorite bassists. We liked to take some of that experimental stuff and put a harder melodic edge on it.”

"But Mountain Jam also illustrates one difference between the Dead and the Allmans: the Allmans’ jam material was much more rehearsed and arranged than the Dead’s. As Gregg said, “All the arrangements are pre-rehearsed down to the letter. But with the solos, you can take it as long as you want.” (89) Allmans jams tended to be a succession of solos and planned-out changes, rather than the loose group improvisation that the Dead specialized in, and their shows didn’t vary so much from night to night."

rvi

3y

i think this is as good as it gets without straying too far off the time period. they also have a whole concert movie for a 1972 show (8-27-72) that is widely considered a top 3 performance by them and it has a nice setting of being in a super hot farm field surrounded by naked hippies. the real good live footage starts in like 1974 basically but i havent really watched a ton of it in general

audio gets kinda out of sync on the 3rd one but the footage itself is pretty astonishing (and rare), especially like seeing the drummers stare each other down while soloing around 15min

Elric

3y

honestly i hate Mountain Jam and it just sounds like the worst type of pointless meandering to me.

but thats cool about Berry though just read before you posted this how he was the one that took WP from more mournful to menacing with that bassline of his

surprised Chris Hillman didnt get a shoutout along with Casady and Lesh

Elric

3y

i thought Weir was ripping it up in that top video but then just read he almost got kicked out of the band that year

rvi

3y

respectfully Hillman isn't in the same universe as Casady and Lesh

i think hes good but its clear that Oakley wasnt as interested in what he did with the Byrds compared to Lesh and Casady's explorations and "lead bass" style

Hillman was a solid rock and pop bassist imo (+songwriter,singer too ofc) but Lesh and Casady were 2 of the best and most visionary bassists in rock history. (I'd take Lesh for #1 bassist oat)

rvi

3y

i think he was still a pretty good rhythm guitarist back then but im not sure what youre hearing him rip up ngl

Garcia and Lesh semi-wrongfully lumped him in with Pigpen (the most skeletal basic keyboardist ever). Garcia and Lesh were trying to move ahead at warp speed while Weir's style was always more subtle and they didnt notice his steady development. Weir was also much younger than the rest of them and was just more unfocused

"Weir was asked in 1992 if he and Pigpen had actually been fired. “Oh yeah, for a few months. We were the junior musicians in the band, and Jerry and Phil in particular thought that we were sort of holding things back. The music wasn’t able to get as free because it was hog-tied by our playing abilities, which was kind of true. I guess that what they were headed towards was fusion jazz, though that hadn’t actually happened yet… It was complicated and required a great deal of facility on the instruments. So they played without us for a couple of months…"

that kinda scared Weir into getting focused and mature though and in the next few years after he developed his signature supporting style based on what McCoy Tyner did on piano supporting Coltrane. he just played nonstop creative chords and phrases to support Garcia and decide where to add or take away space. his guitar was kind of a secret sauce to their music while Lesh and Garcia were the pilots

Elric

3y

Yeah we've talked about this before. I'm no musician so can't speak on technical playing but just know that Hillman had a bunch of the most iconic basslines of the 60s (along with Entwistle and McCartney) and invented the spooky psychedelic bassline that Casady (among others) immediately pinched.

Lesh never captures my attention really so that's an odd choice for the goat imo

Elric

3y

Yeah I don't really get these guys. I respect how serious they and you take it but then I watch and they're just some nerds that are noodling 99% of the time.

I noticed he called it fusion jazz and not psychedelic rock :elon:

rvi

3y

idk the technical part either especially for bass but Casady and Lesh just expanded that original language from guys like Hillman. but to be fair i havent heard barely any live stuff from when Hillman was in the band so I have no idea if he stretched out more live. i bet Casady liked Hillman a lot, especially his tone. and Casady was Lesh's og.

Lesh didn't even pick up a bass until 1965. he was more interested in classical and avantgarde stuff and wanted to be a composer or something until Garcia convinced him to join his band

maybe not taking note of his playing is why they havent connected with you he's the 2nd most important band member after Garcia and was basically equally responsible for the directions they went in all the jams. you can focus on him at any time and he's always doing something interesting, he's either making the short songs worthwhile or doing something insane on the long ones

like Garcia he's not one of my goats because he has a few iconic riffs or solos or basslines, it's the massive body of varied and consistent work and synergizing with the other musicians

rvi

3y

youll be forced to come along the ride with me ITT anyway so my goal is just to get you to find one or two personal gems to actually enjoy. and itll probably be some random s*** i wouldnt have guessed

at this point ive long accepted you'll never agree that they're history's #1 band

Elric

3y

I understand that but his basslines and spontaneous compositional genius just don't come over that well in the live recordings I've heard I guess. I never listen to them on headphones if that's what you do.

Wish they had a real singer. Wish they managed at least one dang classic single or album to hook me into their world. Wish I thought they were interesting or had some mystique but they just seem like nerds.

Elric

3y

You could call them the greatest band at spontaneous live creativity but there are too many other elements to being the goat that they were terrible at

As long as you don't call them rock and roll though I won't argue cause it's jazz

rvi

3y

i know this is a lame answer but it takes more immersion in the music to fully grasp why the group mind genius is so good. and even i still have a ways to go with that. its cultlike but its hard to comprehend the genius of one Dark Star until you've heard what they do with a dozen totally different versions. headphones probably does help a bit because picking apart the individual instruments is key

American Beauty is certainly a classic album but yeah not a masterpiece or anything for me. the LSD and counterculture connection + cult fanbase helps to make them the most interesting and mystifying . but I do concede that Phil Lesh is literally the biggest nerd that ever become a rockstar. literal high school math teacher vibes. Garcia is cool to me but its because hes an anti-rock star type guy, humble and teddybear-esque easy to connect with

Elric

3y

You could call them the greatest band at spontaneous live creativity but there are too many other elements to being the goat that they were terrible at

As long as you don't call them rock and roll though I won't argue cause it's jazz

rvi

3y

its absolutely 100% rock though more than a lot of bands. ticks every box of a legendary rock and roll band

Elric

3y

Remember how you said part of the reason you didn't want to dive into movies is cause you're busy checking out music and you didn't want to miss out on all of the amazing music out there? That's how I feel about turning into a Deadhead. I'd rather check out the thousands of other things out there I could be checking out instead of working toward 5% understanding after a decade like you.

rvi

3y

yeah that is understandable

i watched 3 movies last week though

Elric

3y

Sex?

Elric

3y

Make an LB you giant cinephile

rvi

3y

pigpen had some slightly disturbing explicit s***romp lyrics and bill kreutzmann f***ed thousands upon thousands of women or something

even in the later years Weir was singing some of the sexual R&B songs while wearing woefully short shorts

rvi

3y

i already have one but ive just been logging movies on RYM so i can have it in same place as my music

Elric

3y

No I mean their music was not sexy

the thousands of women would disagree I guess

rvi

3y

@BlackSlug thoughts on 1969 and its place in grateful dead history? top tier?