Womanpuncher69

5y

do not give the troll the attention he wants

Womanpuncher69

5y

nvm bottom page clutch

Fargo

5y

our friend woke up

krishna bound

5y

i posted this in the cursed/cringe thread too but this is so absurd i just had to re-post it here look at my class conscious dawg we're never getting a revolution

ARCADE GOON

5y

Of course but we are all Muslims, I don't feel any hatred. IMO Iran and Hezbollah are doing more for our cause than the Sunni countries do

space0cadet

5y

what were property relations pre-fuedalism?

i.e. 200 bc - 800 ad in civilizations like the ancient greece; roman empire; qin / han dynasty, or even just broadly pre-fuedal.

i thought private property became a thing in england when there was the enclosure of the commons in the 11th century onward

however it seems this is not the case looking at class structure of ancient rome where they had proletarii, who were a social class of romans who owned little or no property. how can you own property without it being 'private'? or am i misunderstanding something

Fargo

5y

why are anarchists here as if they're actually a threat?

Yuzzy

5y

I wonder whats the answer

space0cadet

5y

the fez transparent image is f***ed so i cant do it on the glass holding fish or else it looks f***ed

Slurrin

5y

@spacecadet can you throw one on mine king

space0cadet

5y

god these all look so f***ed up

krishna bound

5y

i posted this in the cursed/cringe thread too but this is so absurd i just had to re-post it here look at my class conscious dawg we're never getting a revolution

krishna bound

5y

the economics of rome are complicated and not that distinctive from modern economies ironically. it had mortgages, credit, banking, loans, taxes, and had private property ownership. government could arbitrarily seize private property though. as far as i'm aware rome literally had actual private property except "private" meant "private until someone in the government decides to seize it", it was more like a mutual understood lease from the government itself. Even Rome had issues with land ownership - i think something like most of the north african territory was legit owned by less than a handful of people? Rome even had legit credit crises and inflation problems lol
Greece wasnt really that different, theres a reason why early american founders soyfaced over the idea of rome & greece and wanted the early us to mirror it economically
when it comes a lot of other kingdoms around the time even though they weren't feudal alot of them were pseudo-feudal in that they basically were in practice not that difference from feudalism albeit with nuances like standardization or state aid, but still had classes and whatnot

space0cadet

5y

mirror it economically

2/3 of romes population were slaves in the 1st century

p apollo

5y

let me get one 🧐

space0cadet

5y

what were property relations pre-fuedalism?

i.e. 200 bc - 800 ad in civilizations like the ancient greece; roman empire; qin / han dynasty, or even just broadly pre-fuedal.

i thought private property became a thing in england when there was the enclosure of the commons in the 11th century onward

however it seems this is not the case looking at class structure of ancient rome where they had proletarii, who were a social class of romans who owned little or no property. how can you own property without it being 'private'? or am i misunderstanding something

ARCADE GOON

5y

First of all Marxists generally differentiate between private property and personal property. Your toothbrush is your personal property because it doesn't have any economic use. Private property is property that you can put to use economically.

Property, both personal and private, first appeared around the Neolithic Era, so about ~10.000 B.C. It actually has a lot to do with agriculture, with climate and humans settling down after being nomads. I can't go in detail about all this, but basically, because humans went away from being hunters and gatherers into becoming town-dwelling people, many changes happened:

1. In most climates, you suddenly needed to sow seeds months ahead and store food to survive the winter, whereas for hunter & gatherers, their rewards were more immediate. The knowledge required to cultivate land is much higher than the knowledge you needed to hunt and gather. Therefore, the younger generations had to depend more on their elders than before once agriculture appeared.

2. Most hunter & gatherer societies were matrilocal, meaning the mother and grandmother more or less stayed in a general area while it was the men who were more nomadic and wandered off into new areas and settled into new tribes. With agriculture, this changed: You suddenly needed most men to stay in the same spot to cultivate the lands. Since men are naturally born in a higher rate than women (ratio of 105 to 100) and many women died of childbirth, the situations reversed: No longer did the men wander off to new women, but women from far away were - often forcibly - brought towards the men.

3. With the knowledge-barrier, the winter-barrier and the gender-ratio-barrier, you suddenly had a situation where the elder members of a society had lots of power: The young people depended on them to survive and to have s***and start families, because they were the ones controlling the grains, the storages, the animals and the flow of women. Hunter & gatherers barely had any wars. Wars mostly started after agriculture appeared, and were often tied to the obduction of women from other tribes. In order to stop these bride-stealing wars, the elders of different tribes agreed to trade women and animals. Similarly, the domestication of animals began around this time. Since most people were not nomadic, they now began to develop animosities towards their settled neighbors, and started raids over abducting cattle. It is also because of this that the concept of "yours versus mine" appeared.

4. In order to uphold this order of elders ruling over the youngsters, ideology and "state mythologies" first appeared around this time. This is when property truly started. In primitive-communism, there was no real sense of property, just like in a family, people just cared about each other and tried to share. Trading was also rare, because you can only trade if you have something the other person desires yet does not possess - this doesn't really work with hunter and gatherers who could barely build anything and did not have any trade routes to speak of. But once the first villages and towns appeared with agriculture, trading also appeared, and with it the property relations of "yours and mine".

5. Around this time is also when inheritances played more of a role and legal systems first developed. In pre-class society, it is hard to imagine what could even be inherited. The entire tribe was seen as one extended family. But once societies switched from matrilocal to patrilocal, more emphasis was put on marriage and monogamy, on marrying into another family, on inheritance, on women marrying into the right families. Fatherhood first became a legal concept around this time, because property was beginning to become tied to settled families. Fatherhood didn't matter in one extended family-tribe, but it did matter when several families now began to live next to each other. Motherhood is of course biologically visible, but fatherhood isn't, so a legal system had to appear around this time to adjudicate this issue.

6. Now this system continued on a for a bit ... this is way earlier than you were asking for. In between the era I described and the late ancient era/early medieval era you asked for, technology got much better and new tools were invented. With the invention of these tools, it was now possible for highly knowledgeable societies to use powerful weapons. Some tribes were ahead of others and increased the logic of taking women and cattle to all people. With this, slavery appeared and become a dominant mode of production.

For example, the Roman Empire's economic success was in a large part based upon how many foreigners they were able to enslave. Slavery is of course also a form of property: The human is literally your private property.

For various reasons that I won't go into here, slavery slowly progressed into feudalism, and the emphasis went from "owning people" to "owning land".

space0cadet

5y

what were property relations pre-fuedalism?

i.e. 200 bc - 800 ad in civilizations like the ancient greece; roman empire; qin / han dynasty, or even just broadly pre-fuedal.

i thought private property became a thing in england when there was the enclosure of the commons in the 11th century onward

however it seems this is not the case looking at class structure of ancient rome where they had proletarii, who were a social class of romans who owned little or no property. how can you own property without it being 'private'? or am i misunderstanding something