I mean in the end no revolution has been successful in achieving worker ownership, but some have come closer than others and done more to improve workers rights, and those have all been ML

what countries in particular?

also, of course. most socialist projects throughout history have been ML.

USSR, Cuba, GDR for example

Not ML but China pre-Deng also

Most socialist projects where the revolutionaries actually came to power for sure, but there have been many other types of socialist movements, they just failes in achieving that

💯💯

I don’t.. think so?

I think my biggest problem here is how we look down upon other methods of achieving socialism outside of ML. You guys will argue that ML is valid and worth fighting for because of some perceived accomplishments of the past, despite it’s failures and unfulfilled promises. leftcom’s/libsoc/ancom/etc seek to address these problems. And of course, they don’t have any successful revolutions under their belt. these ideologies are fairly new within the left and they don’t seek revolution in the first place.

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But these movements aren't new though, they've existed for at least decades and some even exist for as long as Marxism has.

I mean I will support any leftist movement if it's the second most viable alternative is capitalism, but that doesn't mean I don't have my reservations on those revolutions and doubts about whether it will last.

I’ll be very precise here then. I don’t think there’s a lot of examples to point to when talking about a libertarian interpretation of socialism. Rojava was a great example but they didn’t have the proper defenses or foundations. Didnt marx say capitalism is a necessary precursor for socialism? I’d love to see a socialist experiment take place in an already financially/militarily stable state.

Generally speaking, I think any state is destined to be invaded by a much larger imperialist state. They’re most established. I don’t think the state ideology matters that much here. lib- Socialist, Capitalist, ML, etc. The only reasons China and the USSR were able to withstand agitators is because they were already powerful. Not because of their strong, centralized ML specific government .

leftcom has a negative reputation because they tend to just sit on their ass and read all this theory but do nothing completely ignore the practice part of actually seeing if they theory is applicable to the the current situation.

The point of marxism isn’t to be as left as u can it’s to find the current line within ur situation and find the best way to achieve socialism depending on ur material conditions around u which of course changes from time and place, while leftcoms tend to stay dogmatically loyal to the book and forget completely about seeing if it’s applicable. On Practice and Oppose Book Worship from Mao are great readings on avoiding this error.

I used to be a leftcom as well lol, and before that an anarchist nowadays i’m a ML/MLM.

not all leftcoms are against lenin think just the german/dutch variant, the italian leftcoms i think have a saying that they were more of a leninist than lenin

A good amount of this thread is made up of dogmatists, well meaning but too invested in ideology

Comrades

i agree. i also think a lot of people here forget what socialism is intended to be.

The problem is all those ideologies that dont seek revolution in the first place are fundamentally confused on what it takes to dismantle capitalism

idk how you can say this without a valid example. the ussr, china, cuba, etc. all had capitalist economies.

Left-communists are not new, what the f*** are you guys talking about? They were around in Lenin's days. Same with anarchists, same with anarcho-communists et cetera. Marx was beefing with anarchists even when he was alive. Furthermore communism and socialism existed even before Marx. To act like ML is some dusty ass ideology and somehow left-coms are new is dumb, left-communism is even older than ML.

it would’ve been more accurate for me to say that these ideologies have been revitalized within the past few decades in response to perceived ML failures.

I can't read your respond since you are blocked. Probably the precise reason I had you blocked.

Anarchists have their own thread, why do you feel the need to s*** in our thread

I don’t understand why you’re being rude and hostile. we’re just having a conversation here m8.