i’m just still in the early stage of learning myself

what are some things a socialist government would implement? if you dont mind me asking.

Libertarian Socialists put your hands up!

Hitler said he would have calling em selves the National Liberal party as well anyone still arguing they were socialist are either in bad faith or they’re mom we’re conducting an experiment dropping em as a kid

Impossible to answer bc every country is unique and has a different set of problems

Some general goals:

1. Workers own means of production, if necessary through the representation of the state.

2. Production for the goal of maximizing utility, not for maximizing profit.

3. Lowering labor hours is valued over lowering capital expenses, i.e. automation is seen very favorably.

4. Beginning/preparing the transitioning into a moneyless, classless, stateless society.

5. Banks are state owned.

6. No profiting off internal consumer economy.

7. Transitioning into the abolition of private property (not the same as personal property)

anybody up on the Amazon workers organizing in Poland

jacobinmag.com/2021/07/poland-amazon-warehouse-workers-union-grassroots-resistance-organizing

The issue of wages is very important for us because Polish people work overtime because they get such low wages. Working overtime is popular among Polish workers and according to statistics, we are one of the nations in Europe that works the largest number of hours. It’s mainly because of our wages, which are very low, and people are forced to work overtime. So we demand higher wages, and our colleagues in Germany support us because they know that when they are on strike, Polish people — because of the economic situation — are forced to work overtime, and because of that, their strikes have less power.

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It was very effective, especially during the pandemic, when we had common demands. Amazon couldn’t ignore us. When we demanded hazard pay for working in very insecure conditions, they couldn’t say no. Also, when we had demands about safety measures, they couldn’t ignore them. At that time, we saw how powerful we are when we act together. That’s why we try to continue that — without bureaucracy, on the shop-floor level, discussing our situation as workers. We have to develop it, otherwise Amazon will always be much, much stronger than we are.

Trotsky wanted to continue revolutionary momentum by exporting the evolution

Stalin stabilized and conserved socialism within established post revolution borders

yea I know about their historical difference but most trots organisations programs now adays are identical to ML

also whats with uni socialist groups being mostly trots anyways pretty sure @Cudderwalks mentioned this before here, but my uni just opened a general socialist group and most of them are trots

Yeah that’s about it

It’s lame that so many Marxists can’t come together and agree to at least begin the revolution or even class consciousness because of frivolous ideological disagreements about some s*** that’ll not matter for a few lifetimes

@StoppingYou if u followed to read it is gonna have to be on discord lol it takes too long to copy and paste in dm's

oh rip i deleted discord a while ago

ight i dm'ed it on here lol

Market socialism is incredible and deserves more attention

China can be currently described as market socialism . Also keeping market mechanism will just reproduce capitalism and lead to co-ops that fall behind to go out of business or rely on heavy government subsides which for more poorer nations would need them to rely on stuff like IMF loans to support them like Yugoslavia, guess China is there as well to provide as a counterbalance to them like they currently been doing. I can see the argument for market socialism being a stabilising period before transitioning towards more central planning I guess.

I bet his entire argument is based on the aesthetic aspects of market socialism like literal markets and the existence of branding like that s*** will DEFINITELY exist outside of capitalism because that stuff makes products actually interesting for consumers

central planning is bad and china is not market socialist per the definition- private property technically exists in china provided you go along with the states rules for it

yugoslavia is unique, for perhaps the reliance on foreign money engendered inefficiency and meant their industries couldnt stand on their own 2 feet

to go back to central planning- no state is going to be able to accurately gather consumer preferences as well as the market can, by simply allowing people to sort themselves out, it will almost always be more inefficient barring the presence of an AI that can plan for you

second of all- i dont want the state having that much authority over what i need to live, because that implies authority over other aspects of my life. i'd rather be able to peacefully and voluntarily exchange for what i need. there are obvious exceptions such as natural monopolies and the raw essentials, where the market is absolutely unnecessary, but this does not come close to applying to all goods and services

This man would rather have markets that are acting out of self preservation to control his life rather than the state that comprises of him and serves him directly

Anyways

a market without private property is drastically different to a market with it

a market us literally just where people exchange for what they want, theres no reason for them not to be allowed

You can’t have a market without some form of private property existing whether it be collectively owned or not

If the state controls the market then is it rly a market

Syndicalism is literally just co-op capitalism

i feel you and i'll have to think about your first line

but as for the latter, the state controlling the market, unless at some hyper level of communication and the absence of bureacracy, won't be as quick to gather consumer preferences as allowing consumers to sort themselves.