Twist Your Cap

5y

I don’t think these people understand why America got built up the way it has

INCENTIVE

spongebob

5y

CREED lmaooooooo whatttt

spongebob

5y

U got 2 do something else other than post s*** like this....

Twist Your Cap

5y

Who cares man it's the last 2 weeks, grow up lol you're on a music forum you should be open minded

Twist Your Cap

5y

You're talking to me about something I said, I think you're in a worse spot

kiddash3r

5y

i dont understand the point of coming in a thread of a thing you obviously dislike to clown people lol

Twist Your Cap

5y

I don't dislike the entire concept, I think we should have more socialist policies than we do now like, healthcare, UBI Just not everything should trend like this

Womanpuncher69

5y

here's the thread for u then
https://ktt2.com/social-democracy-and-social-liberalism-thread-93589

CLB Fractions

5y

the anarchism thread was more surprising than this.

Womanpuncher69

5y

here's the thread for u then
https://ktt2.com/social-democracy-and-social-liberalism-thread-93589

kiddash3r

5y

i dont understand the point of coming in a thread of a thing you obviously dislike to clown people lol

space0cadet

5y

I'm
I feel like directing him to socdemethread is an insult in itself

TragedyBerlusconi

5y

Social democracy has built some of the most peaceful and happy societies ever whereas all Marxist leninism has done is produce brief strides then oppress people.

I'd happily take down the iron curtain 50 more times

space0cadet

5y

· edited

I just don't understand how social democracy will work in the global south w the material conditions we have. Feel free to respond or not but would appreciate if some1 can chime in agreeing or disagreeing w me or critiquing my points (plz do fellow socialists I feel like I'm missing something)

First instituting social democracy in the global south assumes that these countries are already developed industrially to become self sufficient and to provide adequate welfare systems. They are not.

Second instituting social democracy in the global south assumes that these countries which try to become developed industrially do not get overthrown. If we look at history we can see this is not the case -- they either get couped (Hussein's nationalization of Oil, Nasser Suez Canal) or financially massacred (e.g Corporate imperialism, IMF + restructuring loans)

Many attempts of semifuedal countries are becoming industrialized stifled from imperialism. Ultimately the national bourgeoise give up from trying to industrially develop and become the west's lackeys via neocolonialism and they continue to set up their economy to get what they can while still being in power. Ultimately this bolsters the west's profits even more while completely slaughters the economy so they HAVE TO rely on loans. The little profit the global south country receives goes to paying off loans, buying arms from the west (in the case of the Middle East) or lining their own pockets.

This causes the national bourgeoise to become so weak. They cannot build industry to build a surplus to provide welfare to their citizens because of imperialism (also bc its against their class interest). They are stuck paying off IMF loans (which furthers their industrialization); and the rest of the profit they have tends to be so small that they cannot even think about giving welfare to their citizens (I can't imagine that they would want to either, considering the class interest).

Ok but imagine if they never took IMF loans and if they were wildly anti imperialist but still capitalist and wanted to industrialize their deeply impoverished country. Imagine they nationalize businesses, and begin focusing on commodity production. Citizens of the country compete with each other with the little capital they have to develop the best technologies to be active in their home market (despite foreign superior technology). Several factories go bankrupt because the market determines them moot. When the bourgeoisie has enough profits to do so, the state DECIDES to give some welfare. (This is assuming they even decide to do it - we can see in the US we have had the ability to do so for hundreds of years but we still have folks w/o clean drinking water BY DESIGN).

There's also a reason why socdem countries only happen in Western Europe - it's because they NEED that imperialist loot to give their bourgeoise lavish lifestyles while at the same time being able to give their ppl decent lifestyles. SLAVERY IS WHAT GAVE WESTERN EUROPE THE CAPITAL TO INDUSTRIALIZE. Slavers literally gave loans to the dude who invented the steam engine. It cannot happen on the same magnitude as the west without imperialism.

Ok now imagine that despite the IMF loans they become wildly anti imperialist and wanted to industrialize. Instead they nationalize businesses, institute mass land reform and instead of focusing on commodity production (e.g focusing on building profit) being the #1 interest in their economy they focus on social welfare being their #1 interest in their economy so everyone can get education, water, food. This happens faster than a capitalist economy because there is no bolstering of the bourgeoisie pockets. This happens because the country works together as a WHOLE not as separate parts to industrialize and there are no factories going bankrupt due to the market - the logic of capital no longer dominates, and less advanced technological industry can coexist with advanced technology industry. This happens because of a planned economy where industry doesn't depend on the shims of capital for production and investment decisions; rather it is made rationally by considering factors like conserving resources and the value for the country as a whole. The welfare is also guaranteed because there is a dictatorship of the proletariat and the people control the government. Now we're talking, right? And now we have socialism.

There's a reason socialist countries happen in the global south and it's because of the incredible way to drastically improve living standards quickly. Instead of a lavish bourgeoise class, and poor working class, every working class person can have a good living standard (because there is no bourgeoise.)

I just don't understand how someone can be anti imperialist and pro social welfare but like, not take the leap to socialism/communism -- it's just the most logical step IMO -- it's the peoples power.

Also my comment leaves out the environmental question. Capitalism isn't going to solve that but Socialism will.

Wondering what your thoughts on all of this are.

Lein

5y

Terrible thread at least there's no Strasserites or Accelerationists in here I guess.... yet

Lein

5y

Terrible thread at least there's no Strasserites or Accelerationists in here I guess.... yet

Synopsis

5y

Wat

Womanpuncher69

5y

Frolein is jokin as well lol