cldtrlsslfls56

5y

John Ford, Hawks? In what way are they not remembered by their last films? 7 Women, Red Line 7000, some of the best films ever?

"It's not to say the last films are always bad or mediocre, but for the most part, they're most likely not going to be culturally impactful". That's what I said, and that's what Tarantino thinks as well, that's why he values something like Ordet or Vampyr more than Gertrud, or the dollars trilogy more than Once Upon a Time in America (his best), or the 50s John Huston movies more than The Dead (his best, by far), or even Clockwork Orange or 2001 instead of Eyes Wide Shut (again, his best), or A Shot in the Dark instead of Skin Deep or Switch, and on, and on, and on...

I agree about OAUTIH, that's what makes what he said even more stupid, it doesn't even apply to his own work. He certainly doesn't get better as he gets old, but he made his best films during the worst moments of his career (Death Proof and OUATIH, inbetween or after two horrible movies), so even his own body of work goes against the thought that a filmography usually grows in a positive or negative way, It's more complicated than that, but it's easy to say that "those last four at the end" suck.

Oscar Winner

5y

it aint never coming

Reformed

5y

I mean I have almost never heard anyone bring up 7 Women or Red Line 7000 especially in comparison to the amount of times The Searchers, Grapes of Wrath, Stagecoach, Rio Bravo, The Big Sleep, etc. are brought up.

I don't think Kubrick is a good example because he died, he didn't choose to retire. Eyes Wide Shut is by no means a small film, it is considered an incredible film and one on the scale of a lot of his big films.

I get that people got outlandish opinions and I do too, but if you were to ask John Huston fans what his best film is, I'd gather an extremely small number would name The Deed. You are much more likely to hear The Maltese Falcon or Sierra Madre. I feel if anything, The Deed is a movie most Huston fans haven't even seen and if they have, probably walked away saying its fine but that it wouldnt even be in their top 5-6 of his filmog. I mean saying that is like saying Blackhat > Heat, Ryan's Daughter > River Kwai or Domino > Scarface, its just something most people will immensely disagree with.

Also, if anything Death Proof is his worst film. His best movies are commonly considered to be Pulp Fiction and Inglorious Basterds, but I would say in general, most of his films I have commonly seen called his best. That is probably what Tarantino wants: For all of his films to be considered so great that any of them could be #1 in his filmog for people. He doesn't want to be one of those guys who loses his relevance and starts making small movies for some studio nobody ever heard of that get called great by like 5 Tarantino fans while the rest never see it or check it out and call it mid.

cldtrlsslfls56

5y

"Commonly", well commonly people get it wrong, and most of these directors were commonly disregarded in general as well. If you've never seen anyone commonly bringing Red Line 7000 or 7 Women as much as The Searchers or Rio Bravo maybe it's because you're looking at the wrong places, the consensus. 7 Women is one of Paul Vecchiali's favorite films, one of the biggest Straub/Huillet's influences, and completely loved by Miguel Marias, Jacques Rivette, Serge Daney, but of course, it's also commonly disliked and not thought as great of a film as his early efforts, the same thing goes for Distant Trumpet, A Countess from Hong Kong and some of the others I've already mentioned (especially the Blake Edwards films). What is commonly thought, especially considering "commonlly" means the american critics consensus, doesn't actually interest me, and it never will especially considering these are the things they believe.

Death Proof is his second best film, or his best depending on the day, is the film that he as a cinephile, as the "blockbuster man" shines the most, the complete opposite of some of his other films, the ones where the "Tarantino, the critic, the historian" end up taking more space and what we get is the worse scenes on Inglorious Basterds (commonlly thought as one of his best films), that it is disliked by his fans and even by the man himself doesn't interest me and this only proves how much these things are more complicated than they seem. If his last film is a response for the type of "late-filmmaking" that he doesn't like (the one he's good at), than we're doomed to have another Hateful Eight or Django Unchained or Inglorious Basterds, or maybe, with a lot of luck, Kill Bill vol. 2 (a bad movie with some nice moments).

Misfit

5y

wouldn’t even be pressed if it wasn’t an already made thing that people have seen in theaters, like bruh just release it

Reformed

5y

well if you're a contrarian, good for you but appealing to contrarians has always been a losing battle in general. End of the day, I think everyone is allowed to have their own philosophy and approach when it comes to making films but Tarantino is definitely right when he says that generally the last few films from someone are usually the ones that most won't really care about. He is right about that but simultaneously you get Jodorowsky or Scorsese who will say for them its about putting their entire lives into film and that just the joy of making a film is enough and thats a fair point as well. Silence is an exceptional film but it is also one that most people will never see and most will never even think to say is one of Scorsese's best. And that normally is the best case scenario for how a later career film from a director turns out.

And I do love Jackie Brown and OUATIH, but Death Proof is just bad. The 2nd half is extremely corny which honestly makes the first half a waste of time when it builds up to something so dreadful. Probably his only film I would straight up say is not good.

Also, I say OUATIH is pretty self reflective, but its by no means a small movie. It was a big hit and it is considered to be one of his best movies by the internet as well (moreso its the casual audience who doesn't rly fw Tarantino that have issues with it, probably because its not as instantaneously exciting as Django or IB or Pulp), so Tarantino gets to make his late career film but also gets to make it the kind of iconic hit that he wants his filmography to be.

cldtrlsslfls56

5y

Do you like what is "commonlly thought" (i.e. the american critics consensus, the "official canon of cinema") so much that any person that thinks differently is a contrarian? So when Tarantino was saying that guys like Monte Hellman or John Flynn should receive as much attention as Scorsese (much more in my opinion, as Scorsese is just a talentless hack compared to these two) was he being a contrarian or just rejecting that tired new-hollywood Easy Riders - Godfather - Taxi Driver history? Hellman died two months ago, not much of a commotion and not a single thread here, but we do have a few on the commonly thought as the best films of every year and the upcoming films commoly thought as being the most exciting next year releases.

If you understand film history as "the ones that most won't care about" you get a really bad film canon. Most people won't care about the best films, especially most critics and most cinephiles. If most people don't think that 7 Women should be in the big official canon that is the duty of someone that truly loves film to burn and reject the canon every day. A history of cinema that includes Taxi Driver or Apocalypse Now but not 7 Women and Red Line 7000, or even Jackie Brown and Death Proof, maybe isn't worthy at all.

Reformed

5y

The thing that I don't like about contrarians is that they feel the need to put things down to create cheap shock value and attention so that others will check out what they are hyping as you just did by bad mouthing Scorsese. Flynn and Hellman are fantastic filmmakers who are obviously underrated to death but neither even begins to compare to Scorsese's immensely deep and dense filmography. To not only attach Scorsese's name to them but to belittle him just makes you sound like a pretentious snob and if anything makes Hellman and Flynn easy targets to talk s*** about, when both are fantastic filmmakers who deserve to be talked about more.

If you need to talk s*** about something, talk s*** about what is killing cinema because it sure as f*** isn't Scorsese or Pulp Fiction or these obviously great films that deserve the praise. Talk s*** about Disney's sewage ass franchise of cheap comic book schlock in the MCU or how their policies behind copyright infringement has killed creativity in Hollywood and made everything so IP-driven. That s*** is genuinely harmful to the industry and to filmmaking. But when you go around throwing shade on Scorsese, who is by all accounts one of the greatest filmmakers the world has seen and will ever see, it makes everything else you are saying laughable. I agree Hellman and Flynn are great and I have plenty of opinions that dont mirror what most people think whether its believing a film like Blackhat or House of 1000 Corpses is fantastic or f***ing hard with Elaine May, Nobuhiro Yamashita, or Ann Hui's s*** even though none of them are really that discussed. But I ain't gonna drag down a great filmmaker, especially one that has been so pivotal for the medium, so people listen to what I gotta say.

cldtrlsslfls56

5y

Jesus Christ, what doesn't "even begins to compare to Scorsese's immensely deep and dense filmography"? Sorry, but even the John Flynn TV films are better than the best Scorsese films. And you can't even begin to compare a true twilight western film like China 9, Liberty 37 to absolute dogshit like Wolf of Wall Street, Hugo, or forgettable moronic films like Irishman ("the best american movie ever made", people were saying on Letterboxd). Now, that's what it doesn't even begin to compare. Scorsese has great films, anyone can agree to that, but they don't come anywhere near close to Monte Hellman, John Flynn, Brian de Palma, Arthur Penn, Coppolla or even Woody Allen's best efforts. He's truly the most overrated director, possibly ever? Especially considering he achieved a type of space on the discourse of cinema that makes it impossible for you to speak bad of him because he's "by all accounts one of the greatest filmmakers the world has seen". Of course, we have to respect the official film history and the man that makes a Netflix ad mimicking an orchestra conductor while he directs the film (wow, he's really an auteur, the auteur, I should say). So yeah, I take this "exaggerations" over not talking about any of these filmmakers at all.

Reformed

5y

· edited

Ok loud man yelling to the entire world

If Alex Jones says water turns the frogs gay, I’m not gonna take his side b. That’s what you sound like rn

And Wolf of Wall St is one of the best movies of the past 25 years. F***ing yikes at your take

cldtrlsslfls56

5y

1. Jackie Brown
2. Death Proof
3. OUATIH

And the rest...

Reformed

5y

Ok loud man yelling to the entire world

If Alex Jones says water turns the frogs gay, I’m not gonna take his side b. That’s what you sound like rn

And Wolf of Wall St is one of the best movies of the past 25 years. F***ing yikes at your take

cldtrlsslfls56

5y

Ok, sorry. Let me rephrase everything I've said so it sounds more appealing to you:

I like the official film history, I think the best films are not those last four ones because they're not commonly thought as the best. I love Roger Ebert and Andrew Sarris. Scorsese is objectively the best american film director of the 70s, 80s and 90s, every american book on the subject says so. I think Death Proof sucks, I know I'm right because everyone says so. A good film is always a consensus. We should always respect the canon, of course, everyone that thinks otherwise is a contrarian.

Reformed

5y

Ok loud man yelling to the entire world

If Alex Jones says water turns the frogs gay, I’m not gonna take his side b. That’s what you sound like rn

And Wolf of Wall St is one of the best movies of the past 25 years. F***ing yikes at your take

Baby Goat

5y

Idk how he is talking about Scorsese's worst movies while praising Hellman who has Silent Night Deadly Night 3 under his belt

Reformed

5y

Man rly put WOWS as one of his worst which is just laughable too