coltrup

3y

So what happens if a large portion of us have a belief system that says you should be able to teach anything so long as it doesn't materially harm anyone - even if it's offensive to some people?

This is why having a standard of 'it offends x group of people so it has to be universally disavowed' isn't workable. You can easily point out that there is a sizable group y that isn't okay with that standard to begin with.

coltrup

3y

So what happens if a large portion of us have a belief system that says you should be able to teach anything so long as it doesn't materially harm anyone - even if it's offensive to some people?

This is why having a standard of 'it offends x group of people so it has to be universally disavowed' isn't workable. You can easily point out that there is a sizable group y that isn't okay with that standard to begin with.

Birdie

3y

It is harmful to Muslims

You don’t get to decide it isn’t

This is the ignorance I’m talking about

sniper

3y

· edited

I think there’s a substantial difference between depicting something offensive in an educational context and to show history, and to show something simply to offend people and harm the other group

The targeted group in particular should have a choice whether they wanted to engage with the material, and it seems like in this situation, they did and well ahead of time.

It’s the reason why there is a Jim Crow Museum maintained by black historians.

sniper

3y

This is the line of questioning the other poster is avoiding

Surely such a pious person would know that different sects have different interpretations and this is the foundation of religious sectarianism which affects all major religions, especially the Abrahamic ones

Is the other poster then implying that their belief is the only true one and represents everybody?

coltrup

3y

So what happens if I disagree? I don't really think it's harmful to you in any meaningful sense, so long as you were given the opportunity to avoid seeing it.

Now what?

sniper

3y

· edited

I think there’s a substantial difference between depicting something offensive in an educational context and to show history, and to show something simply to offend people and harm the other group

The targeted group in particular should have a choice whether they wanted to engage with the material, and it seems like in this situation, they did and well ahead of time.

It’s the reason why there is a Jim Crow Museum maintained by black historians.

coltrup

3y

I completely agree. My confusion is that I don't really see how it's workable for us to say "well if x minority group says this isn't educational and is purely offensive, we should just go along with it without any further discussion".

The reason it's important that the Jim Crow museum is maintained by black historians is that the Jim Crow era was a truly violent, traumatic part of American history that still effects black people today. It seems like this is something that many people can sort of objectively grasp i.e. the salient part of the reasoning has nothing to do with the logic of "x minority group said this is bad so it's bad, case closed" that people are defending ITT.

Birdie

3y

You’re fine to disagree but if you choose to draw it knowing that many groups of people consider it harmful and disrespectful then you deserve the blowback

It’s your voice versus entire groups of people who are following a set value system

If you’re in a position where you’re employed by an academic institution which strides itself as being open to all people, you have the responsibility to understand the nuance of your actions and boundaries of certain things

Doesn’t matter btw if any Muslims saw it or not, the action was publicized and occurred in a classroom setting

Birdie

3y

That’s not meeting them halfway

That’s just saying I’m gonna do something objectively offensive to many people

In the end this is simply normalizing something that matters a LOT a more to Muslims than it does to non Muslims.

This is a discussion on sexuality, diet, social dynamics between men and women and how Islam and the west constraint and struggle to integrate

This is a simple case of a western person pushing the boundaries on what is acceptable in the stage on academia and they got a reality check.

There’s zero incentive for them to draw a religious figure that 1 billion people on the world agree shouldn’t be illustrated.

And the fact some people in this thread think it’s justifiable that they should get away with it kind of proves that there’s zero sympathy towards Muslims.

Letting someone get away with something like this is simply saying, we don’t care about Muslims. Keep your mouth shut you live in our society, your beliefs, don’t matter.

Birdie

3y

We agree as a society that if you’re not a part of a minority group of people, you should stfu about what offends them. If you’re not black you should stfu on how black ppl should feel, if you’re not trans you should stfu about how they should feel, etc etc

(unless it’s in the context where an individual or extremist group has done something wrong. Which clearly isn’t the case here)

ITT we have a bunch of non-Muslims gaslighting and telling regular harmless Muslims living in the west what they should accept and what shouldn’t offend them.

coltrup

3y

Right, but do you not see how this line of thinking accomplishes the exact opposite of what you want? You're essentially saying that my disagreement is outweighed by the fact that it's me versus a larger group of people - but this is the exact sort of majoritarian thinking that the Muslim population presumably wants to avoid to begin with.

This is why your reasoning for why what the instructor did is bad has to be based in some kind of broader set of ethics that isn't dependent on your identity group. That way it isn't just "louder voice wins".

FREE

3y

Yeah you're just self victmizing at this point

Birdie

3y

You describing it as triviality is literally just saying f*** you, we don’t have to respect symbols of faith even though you’re citizens of the same country — suck it up

FREE

3y

But in this very country we allow outright mockery of other people's religions so like?.

Birdie

3y

Thanks for the gaslighting

Birdie

3y

It doesn’t when you don’t ignore context of the situation like many people ITT are doing

This would be a very different discussion if we’re talking about evolution for example.

There’s little value attached to Muhammad, his appearance, and actual illustration of him for a non-Muslim. There’s no real reason in a historical context to draw him or benefit in an academic sense.

There’s obviously MUCH more weight when we’re talking about what it means for the prophet to be illustrated for Muslims.

So this scenario the views of Muslims do matter more because there’s no inherent value or significance of the subject to non-Muslims.

FREE

3y

I mean people mock Jesus and that's often defended aswell so the whole "This shows people have zero empathy towards muslims" Isn't really true.

Seems like you won't settle for anything less then non religious censoring themselves to adhere to rules of other cultures so its not much to be said.

Birdie

3y

I mean we don’t for Jews because they’re integrated and actually a more coherent group that can raise consistent grievances versus Christians (who are the majority) but that’s a whole other point.

Birdie

3y

Are Christians a minority group in America buddy?

FREE

3y

This isn't true at all

FREE

3y

Being a minority isn't the only denominator for what can and can't be said about you nor should it be.

Society is much more complicated then that

Birdie

3y

I mean we don’t for Jews because they’re integrated and actually a more coherent group that can raise consistent grievances versus Christians (who are the majority) but that’s a whole other point.

Birdie

3y

You’re posting satire from South Park and Family Guy which are the most inauthentic and purpose built money generating form of media of fake controversy

You have Jewish executives greenlighting the studios above shows lol